Hi, Canuck.....and Tod,

Tod.....re authenticity........ I'll have to say 'I stand corrected' on this one.......whilst I've seen a few '33 engines, I wasn't aware of those details.......

Canuck.........alright, lets talk about freeing up your engine, and getting it running nicely......I've 'been there and done that' with a number of engines, one time and another....and there really is a bit of 'learning-curve' involved, to 'do it right'.

Just getting the engine 'un-stuck' and running it isn't the best idea. There's more to it than that.

Firstly, before attempting to turn the engine, have the oil sump (oil pan) off, and remove the sludge, cleaning the sump well with a good solvent. have the oil pump suction screen off, and clean it likewise. You'll find that the screen may be plugged solidly with hardened sludge, so much so , in fact, that lacquer-thinner and an ice-pick tip may be needed to clean out all the little holes in the screen.

There's several ways to 'un-stick' the engine, depending on how thoroly its 'stuck'. First, have the head off, and have a look at the bores. It sometimes happens that a head gasket will deteriorate and allow coolant water into one or sometimes two bores, causing serious rust build-up.

If there's no bad rust in the bores, put one or another good penetrating-oil on the piston-tops, and leave it to soak as long as you have patience for. Then, if circumstances permit, put the oil sump back on, with a gallon of oil, and take the car out on the road, in tow. Tow it at only 5-10-ish mph, and try letting in the clutch with the gearbox in top gear.....the clutch will slip, of course, so try to keep a sort of 'pulsation' on the clutch engagement, intermittently applyiing torque from the driveline to the engine. This, assuming you take care to keep from overheating the clutch, is the easiest way to apply enough torque to free the engine, if it will free up, that is.

If you can't tow the car, then remove the flywheel under-pan, and try prying on the flywheel teeth with a long prying-bar, as long a bar as you can manoeuvre under the car. Cut a suitable block of wood to fit inside the bores, and have a reliable helper 'rap' on the piston-tops, using the wooden block and a heavy (4lb.) hand hammer.

If that won't free the engine, have the oil sump off, and start removing piston/rod assemblies. First, inspect the tops of the bores for 'ridge', and use a ridge-reamer if necessary.  Pick the two in the most convenient location, remove the rod-caps, and use a little hydraulic bottle-jack, along with suitably cut pieces of wood, to press the piston-rod assemblies up out of the engine.

After removing the first two piston/rod assemblies, try turning the engine again.....often, just removing two pistons will reduce the 'drag' enough to allow the crank to move. If it still won't turn, remove the next two, and try again.

When only two piston/rod assemblies are left, placing the bottle-jack under one of them, and lifting, will almost always free the engine.

Once all the pistons are out, pack the area under the cylinders with clean rags, and use a 'deglazing-hone' on the bores. Following that operation, clean the inside of the crank-case as well as you possibly are able, using rags and solvent. This is horribly nasty job, but there's nothing else for it, unless you opt to pull the engine and strip it down for tank-cleaning. Have the side-plates off, and de-sludge the tappet area as well.

You'll find than most, if not all, of the piston-rings will be 'stuck' to the pistons. There's nothing for it but to remove the rings, and carefully clean up the ring-grooves of the pistons, using either a 'ring groove cleaner' tool, or a sharpened scrap of broken ring.

Feel the gudgeon-pin (little-end, or wrist-pin) bushes for 'shake'. These will often found worn on the Dodge/Ply sixes, and should be replaced/refitted if necessary.

Inspect the rod-journals of the crank.........if scored or otherwise damaged, there's really nothing for it but to have the engine out and have the crank re-ground. As an expedient, I've re-assembled some engines when a rod journal was as much as .002 out of round and had them run alright......with short-time use in mind, and the understanding that bearing life will be 'limited' to put it mildly.

Now, as you've read, the correct way to free up a stuck engine is pretty much exactly the same as the traditional 're-ring and rod bearing' job.......and indeed it is.......'theres no free lunch' with these old engines.

(I've worked on.....and successfully 'restored'.....a few engines which were so badly stuck that there was nothing for it but to sacrifice the pistons to get the engine apart. In those cases, the bores were so badly rust-pitted as to require boring and/or sleeving anyway)

What happens if you simply break the engine free, and run it, without bothering to remove the sludge and free-up/refit the rings?

Well, you may 'get lucky', but the odds are against you.......I've seen a number of engines which were freed up after storage, which seemed to run 'sort-of-alright' for awhile.......but didn't run as well as might be, due to low compression/blow-by from the stuck rings, and/or had early bearing failure from the badly restricted oil supply, due to the sludge-blocked oil-screen.

The really best procedure, of course, is to have the engine out, clean and inspect it, and do a proper 'overhaul' or 'rebuild', replacing/refitting as necessary. If you can bring yourself to invest the time and $$$ in doing the engine up correctly, you'll be happiest in the long run, as, with reasonable care, that engine will run as it should for many decades to come.

If you discard the original engine, and fit a modern high-performance engine/gearbox, you'll have......basically.....a mechanical joke, which will be pretty much worthless after the 'novelty has worn off'......(note that the 'street rod' cars are primarily display pieces, some of which will go very fast in a straight line, but are just not safely useful road cars.....if you want a 'street rod', you can, with a bit of looking,  buy one cheaply when its owner is tired of it....there are surprisingly large numbers of 'street rod' cars offered for sale, often very cheaply, in the Craig's list, here in Cali.) 

If you need 'performance', then invest in a Jaguar car, or a Corvette, which have the suspension/braking systems designed for the speeds at which they will run.

If you really like the aesthetic qualities of the '33, but don't care for the snail-like lack of horsepower of the '33 engine, then fit a '57-'59 Dodge/Ply six, with the optimal mods for a medium-performance road engine. You can do this without cutting or modifying the chassis, or taking the seriously dangerous risks involved with the steering-geometry problems incident to fitting a V8, and the later 6 will run you as fast.....or faster....than is safe on the road. Crate up the original engine, and preserve it carefully, as someday you or some other owner will want to bring the car back to original spec.

cheers

Carla

Hi Tod, Chet here.

I have two questions:

When I changed the oil in the 29-U the oil pressure at idle went from 40 to 70 or pinned the gauge.? I used 10W 30.? Maybe I should have used strictly 30.

How do you get the profile picture to work.? Does it have to be a particular size or am I missing something.???

Chet,

Quote

I am not sure about the oil pressure and will check it out over the weekend but the 90 pixels worked great.

Thanks again,? Chet...

Quote from: chetbrz on November 07, 2006, 01:44:50 PM
Hi Tod, Chet here.

I have two questions:

When I changed the oil in the 29-U the oil pressure at idle went from 40 to 70 or pinned the gauge.? I used 10W 30.? Maybe I should have used strictly 30.

How do you get the profile picture to work.? Does it have to be a particular size or am I missing something.???

Chet,

It seems odd that the oil pressure would go up when you put in 10w-30. Do you know what was in there before? Your pressure relief valve should be keeping the pressure from going too high. Maybe it is stuck closed. . .

It has been a while since I uploaded the profile picture and I don't recall how I did it. But I also don't remember having any particular problems uploading it. Looking at the HTML this site generates, the one that shows up on the left of my posts is apparently 90 pixels square. So I would guess that you should have an image about that size (fewer pixels than a modern day desktop icon).

Quote from: TodFitch on November 07, 2006, 10:42:45 AM
When you get to putting oil in the case, it will take 5 quarts. It depends on the condition of the motor and your ambient temperatures as to what kind of oil you want. I use 10w-30 or 20w-40 in my 1933 engine depending on summer/winter (or what passes as winter in my area) and if I anticipate more high speed (freeway) driving or not. If your engine is not as fresh you may needed a higher viscosity oil.

I could not hazard a guess as to the amount of diesel oil you will need to free up the engine. :)

Hi Tod, Chet here.

I have two questions:

When I changed the oil in the 29-U the oil pressure at idle went from 40 to 70 or pinned the gauge.  I used 10W 30.  Maybe I should have used strictly 30.

How do you get the profile picture to work.  Does it have to be a particular size or am I missing something.???

Chet,

When you get to putting oil in the case, it will take 5 quarts. It depends on the condition of the motor and your ambient temperatures as to what kind of oil you want. I use 10w-30 or 20w-40 in my 1933 engine depending on summer/winter (or what passes as winter in my area) and if I anticipate more high speed (freeway) driving or not. If your engine is not as fresh you may needed a higher viscosity oil.

I could not hazard a guess as to the amount of diesel oil you will need to free up the engine. :)

Thanks everyone and thankyou Bruce that's jist the info I was looking for. This shouldn't be water damaged as it was turning last year and was stored inside. Does this engine take 4quarts and what kind of oil should I put in after unseizeing it, this is going to be a long project if I keep this car or not.

Let's help 33plycanuck save this engine.   My suggestion is to:  remove the spark plugs: pour 1/4 cup of diesel fuel into each spark plug hole:  let it sit for 2 days:  pour more diesel into each hole: wait for 2 days.  Put a socket on the crank pulley nut and give a LONG torque handle an EASY left/right force.  Continue for 25 times.  If the crank pulley moves at all, add more diesel and continue VERY GENTLY.  Add diesel as needed and be slow in getting complete engine revolution working.    You may need to wait, patiently, between these steps of operation.       I have done this many times and it does work.  (Unless this is a totally water/rust frozen engine.)  Good luck,  Email me for more ideas.    Bruce

Carla,

There were four separate oil pump/oil pressure relief valve setups used in 1933. And you can tell by looking at the block which it is fitted with so somebody who cares about authenticity for judging would prefer the correct version.

Actually, there are three ways the oil pressure relief came from the factory:
1) On the oil pump cover plate.
2) In the oil pan
3) On the driver side of the block (as in later engines).

However 2) could have been retrofitted to be similar to 1) with a factory kit. The retrofit kit and the earlier cover plate relief valve are visibly different. Thus giving a forth setup.

I'd have to check engine numbers in the parts book but I'd guess that engine came with the first of the four oil pump/pressure relief value setups. So if the engine that is with the car is original then I'd recommend keeping it with the car if possible.

Canuck, if you decide to sell the car to someone who wants to keep it original, I may be able to help.......I've got a couple of suitable engines here, one of which is a '34 Ply, and another is from an early '34 Dodge sedan delivery.

The early Dodge commercial engine is a 201, like the 34 Plymouth. That engine was from a '34 which was alleged to have been in dead storage since the '50's sometime.......it has exterior surface rust, but its free and the bores and valves look good. The head, unfortunately, has a crack started in the upper surface. 

The head from that engine is the one now on our '34, and has been running alright without leaking after we used a block sealer material in the coolant water. I've finally found an un-cracked head on ebay, and will be putting it on our '34's engine, so the head from the '34 Dodge engine can go back on it. That engine will probably run alright with no more work needed than just cleaning out the oil sump and oil pump strainer. Aside from the serial number, its for all practical purposes identical to your '33 engine, so it would fit up to your '33 with no problems. ( it would be possible to re-stamp the serial number to match the number on your dead engine......I suppose that if re-numbering is done with no intent to deceive, as in re-numbering a stolen car, that wouldn't be illegal or unethical.)

Shipping would be a problem, of course, as I'm located in California......if you could use the engine, and can arrange shipping (we could put it on a pallet and forklift it onto a truck here), you could have it for pretty much any pittance you'd care to offer, or we'd happily trade for some item or another we could use........we've just accumulated more thingamies here than we have storage space for, and I've been trying to clean up our place a bit.....I was considering listing those engines on the ebay or Craig's list, actually.

A possible arrangement might be that I could make up some sort of engine stand arrangement, clean up the engine, and run it on test here.....

cheers

Carla

Thks for the info. You guys have really got me thinking it would be a shame to rod this car. Anybody know the best way to unseize the engine without taking it apart. I talked to the previous owner and he was trying to start it with the crank only last year. Also anyone want to buy it? I will sell it or trade for a 37 chevy 2dr or a 28 or 29 ford 2dr flat back. I really have my heart set on a rod. Input, input, input. Thanks

That's a casting number - not a part number.

the body # is 55 and the engine # is 5062. What's the # onthe head? 600668-1

The oldest 33 PC (Canadian built) is 9311042 - so your car was built very close to it.  That car has engine PC7045 and body number 50.  What are the numbers from your car?   Engine number is on the left side of the block, just below the cylinder head and directly above the generator.  Body number is on a plate on the firewall.

Your car is just the 97th 'Plymouth Six' six cylinder car built in Canada. The numbers started at 9311 001 for 'built up jobs' assembled at Windsor Ont. All Plymouths prior to this had 4 cylinder engines. There was only 1254 1933 PCs built in Canada. After 9312255 to the finish at 9313273 they were 'Plymouth Standard Six' and were built after April 1 1933. Your car was built in October 1932 just prior to the Nov. 1 release of the new 1933 Plymouth six cylinder cars.? So your car is very rare. It would be a shame to rod it. There is an engine number stamped on a pad on the left side of the engine block just above the generator and just ahead of the oil filler tube. Could you tell us that for the record? (The engine was built at the Dodge Main plant in Detroit and shipped to Canada.)? ?

Hi Guys. Thanks for the response. The serial #9311097. I'm really torn about keeping this car original or not. Engine is seized solid, front fenders and running boards are really rough ( Iwas going to go fiberglass), hood hinges are badly bent out of shape. I had a 37 chevy before and it was seized and I had very little luck after I got it moving again and ended up rodding it. It was a lot easier to get parts for too. I was actually looking for a 37 chev 2 dr when I happened to find the Plymouth and fell in love. Still can't decide what I'm going to do but I am in no rush. A lottery win would come in handy! I also didn't realize how rare this car is until recently.
Thanks
Pat

Canadian built PC's are few and far between.  Keep it original, especially if you have the engine and transmission.  By chance, the oldest (earliest built) '33 PC is a Canadian built Plymouth that belongs to a club member in Ontario.  What is the serial number from your car?  (Found on a metal tag on the right front door post, between the hinges).  There are minor differences in the Canadian vs. USA built cars but nothing that is earth shattering.....the editor of our club magazine lives in Winnipeg and I'm 92 miles from downtown Wpg.....

Roof wood frame is (or was) available from N/C Industries. The rest of the roof is chicken wire, cotton padding and rubber roof fabric. The chicken wire you can get from your local harware store, padding from your local sewing and fabric store and the roof fabric is available from various antique car vendors. See http://www.ply33.com/Repair/roof for installation details.

The flat section of floor by the seat is wood and easy to make. The section that goes up and touches the firewall is metal. Which one are you missing?

The 1928-33 Master Parts Book is available as a reprint. Mine is by Obsolete Auto Parts but I think Crank'n'Hope has it too. (I have not found any recent indication that Obsolete is still in business, but Crank'n'Hope and Faxon are.)

There was no service manual in 1933. But the owners manual had very detailed repair instructions and a pretty good set of mechanical illustrations. For PD the owners manual is available as a reprint. I suspect that should be true for PC as well. There was an aftermarket "mechanics manual" for 1933 to 1936 Plymouths. Reprints and originals of that come up on eBay from time to time.

Kathy Schrack makes interior kits for most 1933 model and body styles. I would be surprised if she does not have one for a PC four door.

You can find contact information for N/C and Kathy at http://www.ply33.com/Parts/Vendor.html Contact information for Crank'n'Hope should be available by a web search.

Any particular reason to desecrate the car with a "small block and tranny" when you have the "original engine,trans, and rear end"?

Hello everybody. I guess I'm the new kid on the block. I have a 33 Plymouth 4dr mod PC. 107 wheel base. The first thing I need is a parts/repair manual. I have no interior at all including front floor,window trim, and no roof. I have the small block and tranny ready to go in and have the original engine,trans, and rear end. I also need a set of rear passenger side door hinges. I would also like to fill inthe roof as I have no roof and no parts for it. Any ideas or instructions would be very much appreciated. This is a canadian car made in Windsor. I am in Winnipeg, Manitoba.