Push Button Starter?

[JimCno]

Many people want to switch over from 6 volts to 12, usually giving the reason that the car is hard to start. Those of us who've had no problem running 6 volts know that converting to 12 volts is just masking a problem.

I've never had a problem with my engine turning over and I've often wondered if some of that has to do with my foot pedal starter. It's all mechanical and it's all right at the starter. Fewer parts, fewer problems.

Aside from that, I find the foot pedal starter one of those wonderful little quirks that separate our old cars from today's cars.

[plym_46]

Your mention of a physical problem in dealing with the stomp starter reminded me or our old neighbor.  he had a 41 os so Pontiac with the foot start system.  He walked with a cane due to a knee injury sustained in WW I.  He was quite a clever fellow and fabricated a device that fit the end of his cane that allowed him to use the can to assist his mobility and to fit over and activate his starter.  He also had a clip on his dash board to keep the cane handy and secure while he drove.  I also remember getting that cane shaken toward me and me and my friends on several occasions.  He planted really good watermelons.....

He probably would have enjoyed some other type of starting procedure also.

[Carla]

Gentlemen,

I really didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, or provoke controversy, with my earlier comment.

Tod, the reason for this starter drive mod is that some people find the foot pedal starter control 'awkward' or 'inconvenient', a petty annoyance. Some other people like and prefer the pedal starter arrangement.

This is just a difference in people's preferences, I suppose, but I can answer that I've done this starter drive change on a couple of Dodge trucks I've owned, at one time and another, for what I considered good reason. I have a minor, but nuisancesome, mobility problem with my right leg and foot, from an old injury, so getting my foot up to the starter pedal is mildly uncomfortable.....not all that terribly badly so, but enough to make the starter mod worth doing.

For those who have 'an issue' with originality, this starter drive change is perfectly reversible, back to the original system, with no evidence of modification, assuming one doesn't drill the dash for the press button. (for that matter, I suppose one could leave the kick pedal and spring assembly in place, just for a silly chuckle when someone unfamiliar with the car tries to start it and nothing happens)

Mr Pllymouths........As a 'freedom of speech' issue, you have the same entitlement as do I to express your opinion.

In a forum such as this one, that right carries a corresponding responsibility of reasonable courtesy to others. Your choice of a turn of phrase equating my opinion with the character of untreated sewage is clear and direct personal offence.

I expect you to withdraw that statement forthwith.

cheers

Carla

[my33ply]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!

[plym_46]

Me, I just crossed my fingers and checked the box. From the constitution:

"The purpose of the Club is to encourage the use, preservation and restoration of Plymouth and Fargo automobiles and trucks, 25 years of age or older, particularly the AUTHENTIC restoration ..."

Seems to me USE trumps authentic restoration in the language of the club.  Personally I would rather have a Plymouth I can drive, not a point perfect moveable sculpture, which abandons its use as an automobile (capable of self movement from place to place)

While a reasonable argument can be made that a Plymouth with a Chevrolet drive train should not get any engine points when judged, A p15 with a P20 engine should not be cast in the same light.  After all it is what was done by the market and even indeed by dealers with the blessing of Chrysler Corp to keep them running.  (I know this personally because I worked at a Dodge dealership that had a factory approved engine rebuilding shop on the premises, and it was touted as a strategy to keep your car running on a convenient schedule.  One day to swap a factory approved, licensed, and waranteed engine, or about a week to rebuild your original engine. 

Plus to see a car outfitted with performance enhancements that were available at the time of its manufacture, would open a furter judging catagories rather than closing out cars, and more importantly now, people from wanting to participating is a club with such a narrow focus.

[TodFitch]

This site and the Plymouth Owners Club is NOT,I repeat NOT, for the hot rodding or modification of Plymouths or Fargos, and some Canadian Dodges, from original. There are other sites God knows on the internet for that. This is not one of them. You signed off on the entrance to this site that you would not discuss modifications to your Plymouth unless for safety reasons,seat belts, directional lights etc. which the Club allows.
I had that questionnaire and check off box placed at the entrance to this site several years ago when several individuals got off on the modification track. This is no place for it. If you read your judging rules and have ever judged at an official Plymouth Owners Meet you will know that changing out the starter in this manner on a car is verbotten and could end up with the car NOT be allowed on the field. I know I would not allow it on the field.
Now stop this thread or I will contact the powers that be again and request certain people loose their site privileges for a while. This has nothing to do with 'aggressive site policing' it has everything to do with preserving Plymouths in their factory condition for history.This is the Club's mandate and the reason this site is here for your use. Nothing else. 
If you can't or won't drive and operate and own a Plymouth in original condition then so be it. Hot rod it, modify it,sell it or whatever but not here. Not now. Not ever.
If you think I'm wrong please contact the site administrators or the Club Executive and see what they say. I'm waiting.     
   

I have a stock car and I generally advise people on keeping things stock, so I think I can comment here.

While the POC is dedicated to originality (well, kind of, since they encourage period after market accessories which aren't original) and this forum is sponsored by the POC that does not mean that we should not be polite and reasonable with one another. It is easier to attract bees with honey rather than with vinegar.

I wonder who you are: Your profile lists no car, no location and no real name. Please at least stand up and let us know who you are. With such strongly held convictions we should at least know who we are interacting with.

I also wonder who the are "powers that be" you will notify: Mark Olson is web master here. I'd be very surprised if he does not follow the threads and already know whats here. And I happen to know the current POC president and know that he had a modern drive shaft put on his car last summer. Does that make his car and him an outcast in the club? I believe that one of the POC's "technical advisors" sells kits for putting modern transmissions into old Plymouths.

In the case of the original question, I don't personally see the reason for replacing the mechanical starter switch with an button. And I haven't researched it enough to know what is involved. So I have not commented on that. But that strikes me as being a relatively benign change compared to even dropping a later Plymouth L-6 engine into the car, so what the heck. We might want to remind him that it will cost him points in a judged show and ask him what the benefit he hopes to obtain from that change. But we don't need to threaten to go to the powers that be and request that people be thrown off the discussion forum.

[RC Drown]

Much too harsh

[captbrian41]

Hi all, I have a driver also and even if I did a total restoration I would still want to drive it. That being said I have all the recognition at local shows that I need as an HPOF or driver participation that I need. Bob said it best a while back about the look on oldsters, boomers and kids alike when you let them touch and sit in the car at these events. When I first joined the local chapter of the AACA here in New Bern, NC the first gentleman that befriended me was preservationist and suggested that the car remain original, the reason being that it is a reference for all as to what these cars actually looked like back when new or in my case 69  years ago. I may still paint and do an interior down the road but for now I will drive it as is with the exception of an overdrive that I purchased to expand my driving distances to local events.
captbrian41, 41 Plym. Business Coupe, 38 Buick Special (original driver)
Brian

[RC Drown]

Gillette,

Well said.

Bob

[36 Ply]

Gillette-

Where have you been? Trophies cost around 20-25 bucks now. :)  I have a box full of them (half dozen or so) out in our tool shed, and every one is for long distance to a car show. I used to attend car shows, and write "Display only-don't judge" on the windshield card.

At the risk of oversimplification, there seem to be two factions in POC, one group trailers their cars to shows, and the other (I'm in this one) drives their cars. I've owned 2 1936 Plymouths since 1969; they have been driven from IL to Niagra Falls, GA, KS, OK and back at various times.

I joined POC in 1975, and have made some good friends in the club over the years. I think I understand how you feel; good luck with your car: I did not respond to your pushbutton starter question because I don't know what all is involved for this conversion.

Pat O'Connor

[jd2ksilver]

I enjoyed that.
This guy has a 35, not sure if it would match starters.  But he has done some good things, like a 5 speed conversion.
Worth a look

http://www.1935plymouth.com/?70c301a0

[gillette]

First of all, I would like to thank Carla for the answer she gave to my question. As usual, she is polite, concise, thorough, and has experience at many different levels of mechanical expertise.

Next, I would like to say to most of the other responders, ?thanks,? even though no one really addressed my question. I suspect the opinionated and dictatorial response from ?Plymouths? is probably the reason that most of you sort of danced around the question,  afraid of the ?originality police,? (near as I can tell, self appointed.) Or maybe not many here have any input, because all are driving factory stock cars?

In response to ?Plymouths,? yes, I remember checking the box. Do you remember reading this: ?The views expressed and information exchanged on this website are not necessarily the official position of the Plymouth Owners Club, Inc.? Sir, it seems your insecurities are such that the only happy way you can communicate is by angry outbursts bristling with control and official sounding directives. Wow. Bob is correct. You were ?rough.? You probably need to calm down, some, or maybe look into some anger management courses. :D

Here is an idea that I?ve seen bandied about in the Model A hobby lately. Exactly what is a car?s ?factory original condition?? Unless you have a car that is exactly the same way it came from the factory, is it ?original?? Have you replaced the light bulbs, plugs, or wiper blades? Are you still running six volts? How about the engine, or seats, or glass? Do you have radial tires, or multi grade oil? Have you painted your car? Obviously this is a semantics discussion, but think about it for a while. What exactly does ?original? mean, anyway?

All of that said, I must say that the general rude and up tight, snobby, unfriendly and stuffy attitudes of some POC members is driving some of the more open minded members away. This is a very sad state of affairs, yet it has been common in many old car clubs over the years that I have been involved, (almost fifty.) I didn?t say it in my post about the Bulletin, but I will say it here: I am not renewing my membership because what used to be a ?down home? sort of club is now going the way of some of the other national clubs: nit picky and dictatorial. When I was a POC member in the seventies, most of the folks just wanted to drive their cars. Unfortunately that ?let?s have fun? attitude has soured, and now lots of members are more interested in attacking one another. Thanks, but no thanks.

Finally, in defense of my own car, I enjoy some of the more ?modern? conveniences, like a push button starter, and radial tires. So, kill me. For what it is worth, I don?t own a trailer or a fancy truck with which to pull it. I drive my old cars anywhere you may see them. Does that make me any less of a ?member? of a car club than those that boss others around about what is ?right? and what is ?wrong?? Am I less of a man because I don?t compete in points judging? Am I an inferior member because I don?t tow my car in an enclosed trailer for a few thousand miles, roll it onto a show field, then attend the Saturday night banquet at the National Show and covet a $4.00 trophy for the ?best car?? I enjoy my cars and long ago came to the place where I accept old cars and their owners as brothers in the spirit.

Thanks for hearing my views.

Gillette Alvin

[mopardave]

While I personally like to keep my own cars as original as possible, I appreciate what others have done to their cars.  We are all not in this hobby for the same reasons, and I think we should support any efforts that keep these rolling pieces of history on the road.

[jd2ksilver]

That's the kind of post that keeps people away from here.

[RC Drown]

Wow, that was rough

[Carla]

Gillette,

Its just been too many years now for me to remember the extent of interchange, but I have fitted solenoid-operated starters to '35 and later Dodge/Ply, by simply using a '48 or so starter, and adding a solenoid and, of course, its press button dash switch.

The way you can find out whether the interchange will extend down to your '33 would be to get an early solenoid-operated starter, and compare measurements. The first ones you will need are the distance between the two mounting bolts, the diameter of the short turned diameter of the starter drive housing which fits the bored hole in the bell-housing.

If those match up, then extend the manual shift starter drive to its normal full travel when the drive shift lever is down on the switch, and measure the distance from the mounting face of the starter, to the edge of the starter pinion.

Extend the inertia drive of the later starter, and take the same measurement. If they are the same within 1/32" or so, so far, so good.

Then carefully compare the actual pinion gear. If it is the same diameter, and same tooth form, which would also mean the same number of teeth, then it would appear to be an interchange.

If so, bolt in the later pattern starter, and note whether it cranks the engine normally. Crank the engine awhile with the spark plugs removed, to make the cranking easier, and listen carefully for any 'grinding' sound in the starter drive. If it cranks with pretty much the same sound as did the original manual shift starter, then it should be 'good to go'.

Many of the solenoid type starters had the solenoid mounted remotely, commonly on the firewall, but my own preference, when doing this conversion, was to get the type of solenoid which has a curved mounting plate, designed to be mounted on the starter case itself. I'd drill the case, taking care to set up so that the drilled holes would be 'blind', that is, would not go all the way through the case, leaving .010-.020 'wall' of the starter case. The holes would then be tapped 10-32 with a bottoming tap. The screws used to secure the solenoid to the starter case would, obviously, be carefully trimmed to length, or some short pieces of 10-32 all-thread could be fitted as 'studs' and the solenoid secured with nuts/wasners, ideally self-locking type nuts.

With the solenoid mounted to the starter case, it was an easy matter to make a suitably thick copper strap to fit the starter terminal, and one side of the solenoid. The original battery cable, if serviceable, would reach to the hot side of the solenoid.

Running the wires to a press button starter switch is obvious, but one minor nice detail is to set up a mounting for the button switch so that it is under the dash, easily reached when you know where it is, but not obvious to anyone unfamiliar with the car.

cheers

Carla

[RC Drown]

These old cars with the manual choke, foot starter, manual steering, three speed on the column and bench seats are a fantastic window to the past.  I remember my Father saying that when the major auto makers started the column shifts everyone was so pleased as it made for more room in the front seat.  Now it seems that it has all reverted back to floor shift, which I suppose started in the middle '60's.  About ten years ago or so, I took one of my nephews to a car show with me, as I started the Plymouth, I told him to watch, I turned the key, nothing happened, but when I pressed the starter button with my foot, you should have seen the look on his face, priceless.  About a month or so I took a family friend for a ride in the Plymouth, he is just under 30 years old and had never riden in an Antique car other than his '71 Charger, he too was amazed on how the Plymouth started.  I think I have rambled on, but they were good automobiles when new, and still good vehicles today and when treated with care, they can last a very long time and enjoyed at the same time.  These old Plymouths were made to drive and I try to do just that with my "Driveable Dream",  "Wayback Machine" or any other name I want to call it:):)

[36 Ply]

Well said, Tod,

With an automatic transmission, power steering and cruise control, you have to make an effort to stay awake on the Interstate. An old Plymouth, on the other hand, is fun to drive, because it requires a certain amount of skill from the driver.

Pat O'Connor

[TodFitch]

Besides the foot starter is "totally cool".  Not everyone has mastered the art of running the starter with the toe and pumping the accelerator pedal with the heel.  With these old cars there is something for each hand and foot to do.

You're not having fun unless you have more than one thing for each hand or foot do to. Take a simple turn: One hand out the window for signaling, another on the gear shift lever to down shift and your other two on the wheel for turning (no power steering). So you need four hands. You have one foot on the clutch, another on the brake and your third blipping the gas so the double clutching works for your down shift. I guess you could get by with only two feet if you used the hand throttle to blip the gas for the double clutching but then you'd need five hands instead of four. :)

With the power steering, turn signal located within finger tip reach and fully automatic transmission on my new car I could get by with one hand and one foot. A lot easier, but less fun. If I want to go somewhere quickly and without getting tired I take the new car. If I want to "drive" rather than simply go, then I take the old car.

[John Hendricks]

Besides the foot starter is "totally cool".  Not everyone has mastered the art of running the starter with the toe and pumping the accelerator pedal with the heel.  With these old cars there is something for each hand and foot to do.

[my33ply]

The foot pedal actually extends to the starter and manually pushes a button on the starter to cause it to crank. The button looks like a foot control for bright lights, but it is mounted right on the starter. It is possible to push the button manually under the hood and bypass the foot setup completely. Of course, because of the lack of the lever action, it is much harder to get the button down.
     If I remember correctly, when I rebuilt my engine I considered changing the starter but found the bell housing wouldn't accommodate the change without major revisions......the foot pedal works fine. Good luck.

[plym_46]

It would be helpful for those of use that have electrically engaged starters to have a description of the workings of the foot operated starter.  Does the stomper just complete the connection to power the starter, or does it make the connection and engage the bendix? 

If it makes the connection and then the rotation of the starter engages the bendix, then all you need to do is repower it through a solenoid, and then power the solenoid through the switch, no need to change the starter.  But not know the system makes it difficult to speculate on how to accomplish it.

[gillette]

I want to upgrade my '33 foot operated starter to a solenoid operated style. First question is, will the later starter fit the '33 bell housing/ring gear? If it fits, what years should I look for? Final question, where would one find a starter like this? Thanks in advance for any information. Gillette Alvin, Wilmington, NC