Front end rebuild for a 41 wagon

mobildave · May 29, 2009, 09:43:48 PM

Thanks Again Jim for the use of the tool please let me know if I can ever do anything for you.

Hi notdavidspade I used a press to remove and install the new bushings and a large tap handle to do the reaming, this worked out very well for me.

MobilDave

notdavidspade · April 21, 2009, 10:25:41 PM

Hi Dave,
I used Jim's reamer to put in my king pins, (even cleaned the tool up a bit while using it). My king pins are nice and tight now. I just used a drill to spin the tool and lots of oil. Tool works very well, just don't hammer on it. You'll need to put the long end (you'll know what end I'm talking about when you get the tool) through the other side of the yoke, and if its mushroomed out from hammering out your old busheing, you'll score your hole. Just take your time and let the oil fling and you'll have a tight front end in a few hours. Good luck and let me know if you have questions.

mobildave · April 16, 2009, 03:09:29 AM

Jim,
Thank you so much that would be much appreciated.

Dave D.

Jim Yergin · April 15, 2009, 03:07:54 PM

David,
You are welcome to borrow the reamer, just email me your mailing address. You can find my email address in my profile, just click on my name.
Jim Yergin

mobildave · April 15, 2009, 05:02:31 AM

Sorry TodFitch this was my first post, I am newly located in the Northern Colorado Front Range area and have updated my profile.

David Pollock thanks for the reply I have inspected the king pins and they need to be replaced that is why I am looking for the proper tool to do the job. Can you help?

Thanks,
Dave D.

David Pollock · April 14, 2009, 10:39:17 PM

You are throwing money away if you replace parts needlessly. After blocking the car up Unload the front suspension by removing the threaded pins on the knuckle support. This will allow you to feel if the inner bushings are badly worn. The outer pins and bushings will give you a pretty good idea when you remove them and you will not upset the alignment as long as you don't undo the cam bushing at the outer end of the upper control arm. King pins are easily checked for wear by rocking the wheel and so are the tie rod ends. In my experience, the most likely places to find wear is the king pins, the outer tie rod ends and the knuckle support pins.

TodFitch · April 14, 2009, 06:06:53 PM

Quote from: mobildave on April 14, 2009, 05:23:17 PM
Hello all,
I am new here and have a 41 PLY Tudor Sedan

Stephen your frame looks great what did you use for paint?

Jim would it be possible to rent the reamer from you?

Thanks,
Dave D.

Sure would be nice for people to put there (general) location into their profile.

You might be located close enough to someone else that has the same or similar tool. The region I am in has a semi-formal tool lending setup so that can be a good resource for you if a POC region near you has a similar program.

mobildave · April 14, 2009, 05:23:17 PM

Hello all,
I am new here and have a 41 PLY Tudor Sedan

Stephen your frame looks great what did you use for paint?

Jim would it be possible to rent the reamer from you?

Thanks,
Dave D.

notdavidspade · November 25, 2008, 11:09:10 PM

Thanks again Jim. I'm done with the reamer and it was sent back Monday. The front end of my car is back together and will be complete once I get some more things straightened out with Kanter. The lower control arm outer bushings needs to be threaded and not ribbed, and the driver side tie rod end they sent me needs to be left hand thread instead of right hand thread.

As to your email, I've responded twice and haven't heard anything. Hope all is well.

Jim Yergin · November 17, 2008, 11:17:29 AM

Stephen,
Glad to hear the reamer worked.
I believe you are correct in that the act of installing the bushings is supposed to cut the threads.
Did you receive my email about the bracket bolts you were looking for?
Jim Yergin

notdavidspade · November 16, 2008, 12:00:28 AM

OK, I have kingpins back now (finally) and have installed the passenger side kingpin with Jim's reamer. (thanks Jim!) On to the next problem... the lower outer control arm bushing will no go into the steering knuckle support. Upon examining what I got from Kanter and what I look out of the car... the original is threaded and the new one seems to be "ribbed" in that it looks like the same kind of 'threads' but they don't thread... they just go around in the same circle. Is this right?? should the action of installing this bushing cut the treads I need? The shop manual makes no reference of the replacement of this. Thanks again!
Stephen in FL

notdavidspade · October 16, 2008, 11:38:30 PM

While the folks at Kanter have been friendly, I'm not impressed with their product at all right now. I called up customer service and they are going to send me the seals for the upper inner control rods. But now I've realized that the outer pieces (rods?) do not have a castle nut and my original castle doesn't fit the new pieces. I just keep finding ways to be dissappointed. Guess I'll be calling again, hopefully they can send out those pieces as well. For these kinds of prices, I was expecting something closer to true "replacement". :-\

Go Fleiter · October 14, 2008, 01:01:31 AM

mvair, I too don?t remember exactly where and how much o-rings or rubber hose pieces (?) came.

mvair · October 13, 2008, 02:21:03 PM

About the rubber seal on the upper inner pivot bar...

The one shown in the picture of my car is original to 1941. There were a number of superseded part numbers that included different rubber seals. You will also note that the grease fitting is screwed into a piece of metal that is pressed into the end of the bushing. The later ones had a cast end on them. Although not entirely possible, I tried not to use any superseded part numbers in my restoration.

The most common (later) form of this seal was similar to the one shown, but it stepped up to a larger diameter on one end to accommodate the bushing. The one shown is nothing more than a piece of straight rubber tubing. It doesn't seem to do anything except to form a barrier between the greased bushing and road dirt. I don't see how an o-ring would be of any help.

The seals on the outer end, that seal the wheel alignment bushing, were originaly just o-rings. I think those were later superseded too, but I don't remember how they fit.

Jim Yergin · October 13, 2008, 10:41:23 AM

Stephen,
I have and used on my '41 wagon the king pin driver/reamer that Jim posted a picture of. Be happy to send it to you if you would like to borrower it (and I can find it).
Jim Yergin

MRR41 COUPE · October 12, 2008, 05:51:24 PM

Jim, thanks for the pictures

JimCno · October 12, 2008, 10:48:41 AM

My '35 has a solid front axle so I'm not sure how much this would help you. Chrysler made a reamer and set for king pins:

You would drive the bushing in with the set and then ream the bushings with a special reamer that would insure that both bushings were reamed inline with each other.

Without that set and reamer, I would think the way to go would be too bring it into a machine shop and pay them to do it.

elmo · October 12, 2008, 02:08:39 AM

the bushing should always be pressed in , as for replacements any engineering shop should be able to supply them , they will have to put them in a lathe to put the grooves on the inside for the grease .after that they will have to be reamed out for the king pins to fit , i have two sets of NOS king pins and it says on the packet that they will fit a Plymouth , Dodge and DeSoto 37 - 54 there is a few other fittings to but they are packed away so i am not to sure what else they will fit , i do now that some early chryslers were the same

MRR41 COUPE · October 12, 2008, 02:02:08 AM

There was talk on the POC board some time ago about installing king pins in there bushings. The bushings have to be reamed in order to accept the king pin. I reamed mine out with fine sandpaper wrapped around a drill shaft. I thing a POC member had a picture of the proper reamer to do the job right and keep the bushings aligned. Whatever you do don't just press the pin in if its too tight, they have to be fitted.

notdavidspade · October 11, 2008, 10:02:38 PM

Well as much fun as figuring out what?s going on with those seals was, (called Kanter, and the guy seemed rather confused and told me I'd have to call back Monday.) I've have a new hobby of trashing king pin bushings.? I checked the manual (the red cover one with a few years) and it doesn't say anything about how to install.?
Questions:
1... How bad does a bushing have to get before its trash? Can I file off the bad and use what I have?
2... Can I buy just the bushings somewhere?? I don't really want to buy a full kit.

Go Fleiter · October 11, 2008, 02:13:34 AM

Above all, Kanters Bushings didn?t fit into the arm because too big. Kanter dind?t have smaller, so I had them turned down in a lathe.

Go Fleiter · October 11, 2008, 02:11:15 AM

Well, Stephen, I got the same set for my 51: as I didn?t know how the sealing was originally done , ( didn?t have a Parts book than), we decieded to compensate with adequate rubber o- rings. The parts book - for 51 - shows a kind of rubber hose seal? Anybody knows?
For provisorial purposes I somtimes use tire tube rubber gluing it to a seal. I did so for the cluch fork hole and for the universal when I got it perforated on route. Greetings! Go

notdavidspade · October 10, 2008, 10:53:12 PM

All right guys, I went with a Kanter deluxe front end kit.? Here's where I'm confused.? First off, this is what I got for upper inner control arm shafts:

They only have a rubber washer?? My old parts have whats left of something that looks like a rubber boot.? I was expecting something like what mvair has:

Is this some kind of new design? I don't understand how it would work. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Thanks!
Stephen

Bob · September 29, 2008, 08:29:53 AM

Here is a scan of the parts book cover that Jim mentioned. it has been a great help for me over the past twenty years

Hope this helps,
Bob

Jim Benjaminson · September 25, 2008, 10:03:52 PM

"large car parts" (which is a term I hadn't heard before) would refer to the long wheelbase 7-passenger/limousine. These were on a longer, heavier chassis - and borrowed a lot of parts from the DeSoto line. Get a parts book - its worth the money - when you look at the various parts you will note that most parts are marked "not for 7-p".

notdavidspade · September 25, 2008, 01:02:20 AM

If that's the case, then I'm pretty tempted by Kanters "deluxe front end kit" for a 41 at $425. (outer pin kits, outer tie rods, inner shafts and bushings, and a king pin kit) Sorry for my skepticism but it just seems too good to be true!!

Jim Yergin · September 24, 2008, 11:43:33 PM

I know it may say it is not for the wagons but that is incorrect. The front end on the '41 wagons is the same as the '41 cars. The only models that used different parts are the 7 passenger sedan and the limo. Just check the factory parts book. I bought NOS king pin packages on eBay. You can find all the other front end NOS parts there too. You can also check with Len Dawson at Deception Pass Motor Parts (http://www.dpmotorparts.com/). He only sells NOS but you need the factory parts numbers.
Jim Yergin

notdavidspade · September 24, 2008, 10:19:02 PM

I checked out what Mitchel has on ebay and apparently he's trying to retire! I suppose NOS parts are rare. I didn't really see anything that will help out my situation. The items that looked interesting and reasonable (king pin set) says it isn't for a wagon and the other items are too expensive for me. A NOS steering wheel for 500 (in black???) just makes me want to restore what I have. So anyone have some info on how to rebuild a front end without replacing the hard parts? I've figured out that a king pin set is totally different than outer control arm parts.

Jim Yergin · September 24, 2008, 10:11:00 AM

I have seen the references to "large car" for '41 wagons too. I believe that is wrong. I rebuilt the front end of my '41 P12 wagon using regular car parts. There was no difference. I did mine years ago but I think I got most of my parts from Mitchel way back when he had a mail order catalogue instead of eBay.
Jim Yergin

notdavidspade · September 24, 2008, 01:18:00 AM

Rare parts seems to atleast specify large plymouths.. but they total over $1100 for just inner and outer control arm shafts/bushing...
I guess I need to know how do I tell if I need the shafts (or anything else up there).. and how is Kanter selling their product?? (whats the difference between a Lower Inner Shaft Kit (2 needed per car at 125 each) vs. a Lower inner bushing set(1 per car at $120))... is a king pin set all the "outers"???

TodFitch · September 24, 2008, 12:51:14 AM

You might want to check out Rare Parts: http://www.rareparts.com/

notdavidspade · September 24, 2008, 12:39:40 AM

Hi folks...
Its time in my resto to start looking at the front end parts and I'm thoroughly confused about what to buy to rebuild the front end. According to the Kanter site, my wagon is a "large chassis vehicle" and not only do "kit prices not apply", but the prices go up by a factor of 5 on something like a king pin set. (well it does on the Dodge, they don't show a large chassis price for Plymouth, so I'm assuming here... 60 bucks for regular cars, 300 for large ones). I know nothing about old car suspension. The front end looks pretty tight to me. I've shook the front and I don't see any real shifting of parts. All my rubber on the front looks to be shot. So what to buy? Ol' Andy has a Control arm kit for 300 bucks that does all the shafts, bushings, pins and seals for uppers and lowers on both sides, but I don't know if that fits a wagon. Kanter would want (I'm guessing from the catalog, inner/outer shaft kit, inner/outer bushing set) about $530 based on regular chassis prices and $740 based on large chassis. Based on that, no wonder they can give you 10 bucks on your next order and send a fancy catalog. I don't want to over buy, and I don't want crap that doesn't fit. At the bare minimum I'll need shocks (4), all the rubber up front (excluding bumpers, they're still intact) .023and rubber for the rear springs. (shackle bushings). Any suggestions??