body identification

[David Pollock]

That car is definitely a 50 from the firewall back. The rear window is proof of that as it is unique to the 50.  I believe the doors may be from a 51-2 which would allow them to line up with the fenders better, I recall trying to fit a 51 door onto a 50 and it wouldn't fit as it was thicker at the front (hinge ) end. On the 51-2, the cowl just above the fenderline and ahead of the doors flares out slightly. On this body, it does not flare out.  The front fenders and grill are 52 which are the same as 51 except for the hood ornaments and model name on the side.  The front bumper is from a 50.   On a 51-2 the bumperettes match up with the grille teeth and the bumper has a rounder cross section.  Someone has done a lot of work to make a functional automobile out of one that otherwise would have been discarded.

[50Plymouth]

Do these additional photo's of the side and rear convey any more useful information?

[Wm Steed]

Not that it will make much difference as to how the indentification of the car at hand turns out, in any case I will share with the readers of the forum a brief over view of how it was in the auto repair game fifty plus years ago.

As a general routine in the shops I worked at when I was a kid, when we replaced an engine, if the engine had a serial number we ground the number off of the old engine then restamped it into the new engine. If a new engine came in from a recognised rebuilder, they as a rule assigned a number to their engines which was stamped into a plate that was afixed to the block, we routinely overlooked these numbers. In reality we were surposed to have the new engine number transfered to the vehicle, this required paper work and a trip to the DMV/vehicle registration office which cost money plus took time. I can remember going to the wrecking yards to pickup a used engine, sometimes out of vehicles as late as 1950/51 to put into a '37/38 vehicle. As a general rule we got the title to the vehicle with the engine. Sometime we ground the numbers off the replacement engine, sometimes not. Since as a general rule the VIN/serial numbers do not have to be varified unless the vehicle is taken to a different state, the likelyhood of getting in trouble was slim.... Amen for Fords because they did not have engine numbers, just the serial number stamped into the frame....Bill 

[50Plymouth]

Judging by the trim, the nose came from a '52.  Is the 'Cranbrook' name on the front fenders in block letters ('51) or script ('52)?

The 'cranbrook' side trim is in the glove box so I'll later check what style it was. I'll also take a closer look\picture at how the fenders and hood edge up to the body to see what was done. Any modding there wasn't overt or obvious (at my) first glance.

This is what happens when you buy something old, and something you know nothing about  :)

[Wm Steed]

One of the regular contributers to the Early V8 Ford Board made a statement several months ago that pretty well summed up how one should address the anomolies of old cars, he said.... "one should avoid using the words * never* and * always* when talking about old cars"  I have found that statement to be very true.

Several years ago I purchased a '51 Chevy Bel Aire HT, the car was an unmolested original with what appeared to be original paint, etc., The fellow I purchased it from claimed he had knowledge of where the car had been for the better part of it's life. Several months after I bought the car I was doing some cleanup on it with the thought I might sell it. While cleaning the grille I noted the upper bar of the grille did not  have CHEVROLET imprinted into  the bar.... ah ha... the upper bar was a '52, a closer look revealed that the right fender was from a '50 Chevy, a piece of metal had been very skillfully fitted into the void where the fender met the grille bar.

So what did I have..... very simple, a vehicle that had been in an accident many years ealier, the body repairman had used what parts he could get, mostlikely from the local wrecking yard. The owner either did not care, did not know,  or he was pleased with the price.

So how does this equat with the vehicle at hand? Very simple.... it is only a car meant to transport people from point A to point B. At a point in the past, the car needed repairs so it was repaired with what was available, not with what was correct. I myself did this to a '42 Chevy in 1951, the car had been wrecked. I was working at a body shop and bought the '42 for $60. at an auction, the body turned out to be junk because of rust out. We had a '41 coupe in the yard so I rebodied the '42 with the '41 coupe body using the '42 cowl and doors, then I put a 46 front clip on it...wa la, a '46 Chevy was born....Bill

[Captain Cranbrook]

Judging by the trim, the nose came from a '52.  Is the 'Cranbrook' name on the front fenders in block letters ('51) or script ('52)?

[John Hendricks]

Could it be an "Export" model that somehow wound up in the domestic fleet?  Maybe Jim B could answer that

[50Plymouth]

Very interesting !  Your car is a 50, judging by the windshield, rear view mirror, width of the rear window,  dash and front bumper. Notice how tight the bumper is to the fenders?

It has had a 51 nose put on it which would involve some modification to the back of the hood and to the fenders where they meet the cowl.

Somebody went to a lot of trouble to make these pieces fit. It looks like they did a good job.  Send me a direct request and I will look up the starting and ending serial numbers for each year for you.   dp

Thanks, if I get those numbers from you which tag do I then compare with?  I think long term I'd have prefer to have the '50 front clip if I can locate one reasonably (I like the older hood better, but it'll probably cost me more than the whole car did..  ::)) but at least I have something to work with for now.

[David Pollock]

Very interesting !  Your car is a 50, judging by the windshield, rear view mirror, width of the rear window,  dash and front bumper. Notice how tight the bumper is to the fenders?

It has had a 51 nose put on it which would involve some modification to the back of the hood and to the fenders where they meet the cowl.

Somebody went to a lot of trouble to make these pieces fit. It looks like they did a good job.  Send me a direct request and I will look up the starting and ending serial numbers for each year for you.   dp

[50Plymouth]

In nicer weather I'll check for that 'hidden' id label on the frame. The title and tags match of course, eng. is origonal too. The car has lived its whole life in my approx. area. Until spring, my car resides at a friends house who said his mail man told him he bought the car new and resided at a neighbors house  :o In recent decades the car just changed hands a few times within the county.

I will be anxious to ask the original owner about it. Its vac. wipers with a '50 dash, ign. switch on left, and '50 tags allright. So is it unlikely '51 fenders and hood could have been added later? I'm taking the old guys its been passed through on their word, but its clearly got Cranbrook fender and hood

Attached are interior dash and an old view from the front..

What do I have? a factory 'mislabeled' 1950 p20 or p23? I'll have to dig out what the firewall tag says.

[Captain Cranbrook]

If your ignition switch is to the left of the steering column, you've got a '50.  If to the right, it's a '51.

For what it's worth, when I first saw my '51 Concord business coupe, it had a '50 nose on it.  The leading edge of both front doors were bent in a little bit to clear the fenders when they opened. 

[David Pollock]

1950 front Fenders and hood do not fit a 51, and the 51 is wider across the windshield so it is unlikely the dashboard would fit. 51s have electric wipers and the windshield wiper pivots are in a different place. I don't want to be an alarmist  but I would check your car very carefully for signs that the body tags and identification numbers are correct and have not been tampered with.  All these cars have the engine number stamped on the frame above the left rear axle, just forward of the left rear bumper bracket. This is a "hidden " number and takes a bit of looking to find, but it is there, on the vertical face of the frame and on a 51 would begin with P23. If you need a list of starting and ending serial numbers, I can provide them. The only blended model years where checking the numbers is necessary for identification are the 46 to early 49 P15s and the P23s built in about October 51 which share some 51 and 52 parts.

[50Plymouth]

Speaking of body identification... I haven't looked around yet, but I assume there is some common decoding tool for both the door tags and the under the hood body tag. I have 1950 p20 (on title and tag) yet the front fenders and hood are very clearly a '51 p23. I was told it was a late model that got a '51 body. The interior is all '50. Was this a common thing that happened year to year when the factory transitioned to new dies? Or.. does the front end of p20 - p23's exchange perhaps.

[elmo]

I assume they mean the model No which starts with P, on the 52's it was P22 which was the Concord and the P23 the Cambridge . the 53's were P-24-1 , the cambridge and P-24-2 which is the cranbrook which your belvedere comes under   you can tell which model it is by the engine # which is on the front left side of the block just below trhe head. on your car it should be P-24-2 then the engine #following

[Jim Benjaminson]

The 1953 Plymouth was the P24 series.  The only place you will find "P24" is on the side of the engine block - it precedes the actual sequential engine number.  Its on the left side, directly above the generator mounting.  The number is stamped INTO the metal on a flat spot.  Remember, this is on the side of the block and not the top of the cylinder head.....

[1953 plymouth]

i recently bought a 53 plymouth belvedere two door hard top. i need to know what model i have. the body number is 303  6708 when i go to buy parts i'm always asked the " p " number. i can't find this number on the car anywhere.