12 & 6 Volt?

[12905]

I think I have solved the problem of a 6 volt, third brush system.  I had my generator (36) rebuilt by Don Allen as a 50 amp, 6V positive ground alternator. Now together with good wiring connections I can put halogen bulbs in the headlights as well as higher wattage bulbs in some of the other lights.

I have never had a cranking problem - possibly because I made sure the starter is in top shape.

Incidentally, I highly recommend Don Allen's work. My "generator" looks just as new - a very, very nice job -  and no none can spot the alternator without a teardown.

Brian

[FourDoor]

New car nut- This old 6 volt system is a pain. It just doesn't crank over very fast and the lights are dim.
Old car nut- Well just go through all the connections and clean them up including, and most of all ,the starter and battery cables. A good idea is to solder all the crimped connections.
NCN- Oh man that sounds like a lot of work. I think I'll just change to 12 volts. That should brighten things up!
OCN- What are you going to do about all those old corroded connections? They'll get hot as hell trying to pass that 12 volt current. Electrically each one is called a 'voltage drop' and ,by Ohms Law and the Power Law, they will 'glow in the dark' when you put current through them. They'll get hot and some will actually smoke.?
NCN- I don't think it will happen with MY car. It might happen with your wiring but not with mine. Besides it's just too much work going back over that wiring.
OCN- OK but I think you're being foolish and tempting fate. One of the biggest faults on our old cars was the linen covered natural rubber encased wiring. The wire is alright if you just go over all the connections.
NCN- Naw I think I'll just throw in a 12 volt battery and regulator. I never really wanted to get into real restoration anyways.
OCN- OK but make sure you have a good fire extinguisher on board.
Later...........
NCN- Do you think me and the wife and kids could come over and live with you while our house is rebuilt?
OCN- What happened!??
NCN- Well you remember I changed the old car over to 12 volts?
OCN- Yea.
NCN- Well I guess left the lights on and the old wiring caught fire during the night and the car fire set fire to the garage and darn near took the house. The wife is livid. You were right old man. I should have fixed the wiring instead of trying to pump 12 volt current throught it. Live and learn! (Barely.)
........................Plymouths -an old retired firefighter that has seen all the ways people can burn down their homes and vehicle fires in garages is one of the most common.? ? ?
? ? ?

[elmo]

Plymouths   i,m sorry but i have to disagree with you,if its done properly its not a bandaid solution, if it is it must be an xtra good bandaid.  one of my cars was converted 25 yrs ago, another one 20 yrs, also i converted another approx 32 yrs ago that one i can,t comment on as it has been sold, but i know the owner and he has never mentioned any problems , the two cars that i still have i have never had any problems with since they were converted , one still has the original 6v starter motor its still works fine. i can understand that it would not be the thing to do if your car was going to shown and judged , i dont do either, my cars are restored/rebuilt/tidied up to use as drivers as they were meant to  be when they first left the factory , i do try to keep them as original as possible but some times because of availabuility of parts or practicality or safety, i sometimes will do minor modifications , as an example i will be fitting a remote power brake booster to my 39 DeSoto.

[FourDoor]

The original 6 volt system works fine. Changing your system to 12 volts because of starting/charging issues means you are just covering up underlying faults in your cars old wiring. Installing a higher voltage means you have more voltage to make up for the voltage drops across the many corroded connections and wires in your car's loom. But it doesn't fix anything. It's a Band-Aid solution to a long standing problem in this hobby of incorrect and incomplete restoration of the? electrical systems. If you simply took the time and effort to go back over all the connections,soldering the eyelets to their wires for instance, the car would work fine with bright white headlights just like it had on day one. Yes a 32 candle power GE Mazda 1000 headlight bulb will actually glow bright white when the 6 volt system is up and running correctly at it's nominal 7.5 volts. Repair your cars. You may be,and most likely are, covering up a fire hazard.? ?

[elmo]

Go    i have a 54 and had similar problems to you , i converted mine to 12 v , its not to big a job , but if you want to keep it six volt try www.aaca.org, its the antique auto club site ,click on forums then technical advise there is a post there that might help, its about converting your 6v gen to a altenator using the original gen case

[TodFitch]

Tod,
? I had troubles this autumn with the mechanical V regulator. So I?m interested in a electronical one.
Spec for the old Autolite is 57 Amps. A couple of years ago I checkt the Amps on these:
Fuel? ? ?0,1 A,? ? ?4 Emergency? signals? ?14,0 A,? ? 2 Turn signals? 7,2 A,? ? ?2? Backup Lights? ? 6,8 A?
Radio + power antenna? ?6,0 A ,? Wipers? ? 6,0 A,? searchlight? 4,0 A , Brake Lights 7,2 A,
parking lights 8 A,? low beam 19,1 A,? high beam 21 A,? Dash lights 0,6 A

So, while waiting at the traffic light,? without wipers I need + 30 Amps plus Batt. loading? ~210 W.

Do You konwa electronc device for this capcity?

Thanks! Go

Hi Go,

You have a much newer car with a two brush generator and external regulator. And the cutout switch is part of the same unit as the voltage regulation and current protection. In my case with an internally regulated "third brush" generator the high current part (cut out switch) is separate from the voltage/current regulation. So I am ignorant of what you would need to put an electronic regulator on your system.

Sorry,
Tod

[Go Fleiter]

Tod,
  I had troubles this autumn with the mechanical V regulator. So I?m interested in a electronical one.
Spec for the old Autolite is 57 Amps. A couple of years ago I checkt the Amps on these:
Fuel     0,1 A,     4 Emergency  signals   14,0 A,    2 Turn signals  7,2 A,     2  Backup Lights    6,8 A 
Radio + power antenna   6,0 A ,  Wipers    6,0 A,  searchlight  4,0 A , Brake Lights 7,2 A,
parking lights 8 A,  low beam 19,1 A,  high beam 21 A,  Dash lights 0,6 A

So, while waiting at the traffic light,  without wipers I need + 30 Amps plus Batt. loading  ~210 W.

Do You konwa electronc device for this capcity?

Thanks! Go

[TodFitch]

The 6 volt system can work just fine but with one improvement; a six volt alternator. These are usually recent GM type, 1 wire set ups that with minor mod's can bolt to the existing generator bracket. The alternator pulley should align with the fan pulley . Most Model A Ford suppliers carry them. Accessories can be added and with the built in diode and regulator in the alternator, the battery doesn't overcharge which can sometimes happen with a generator. A 12 volt radio can be added using a simple 12v to 6v converter as suggested.? I did all this on my'36 without changing any stock wiring or bulbs. If you want to change back to the generator for any reason, the reverse process is quick.
LR

Another alternative I did: Install an electronic voltage regulator inside the existing generator. Bolt on modification that can be reversed at any time. And unless someone pulls off the bush cover looks totally stock. Not as much output at idle as an alternator, but if your wires, grounds and battery are in good shape the headlights stay bright when you are sitting at the traffic signal with a discharge showing on the ammeter. Goes to charge for a short while when you start moving again. No over charging and boiling the electrolyte, no undercharging and sulfating the plates.

[Lew]

The 6 volt system can work just fine but with one improvement; a six volt alternator. These are usually recent GM type, 1 wire set ups that with minor mod's can bolt to the existing generator bracket. The alternator pulley should align with the fan pulley . Most Model A Ford suppliers carry them. Accessories can be added and with the built in diode and regulator in the alternator, the battery doesn't overcharge which can sometimes happen with a generator. A 12 volt radio can be added using a simple 12v to 6v converter as suggested.  I did all this on my'36 without changing any stock wiring or bulbs. If you want to change back to the generator for any reason, the reverse process is quick.
LR

[notdavidspade]

I have a 3 position switch on my 41.  Off, dim and more dim are the options.  Even on high they aren't very exciting.  My switch is to the right of the steering column below where my choke pull is. (to the right of the ignition)  If anyone has a source for bulbs that are brighter than the 2 candle #55 bulbs, I'm all ears.

[TodFitch]

The swich? is a 2 position dimmer for the dash lights, I leave mine on high all the time.

On my 1933 it is a one position simple on/off switch. I wonder when they went to two positions.... Not clear from the wiring diagrams, they all look like they could be single pole, single throw switches. The schematic symbol changes in 1936 and again for 1937 but it is not clear to me if that was just a stylistic thing.

[MRR41 COUPE]

The swich  is a 2 position dimmer for the dash lights, I leave mine on high all the time.

[36 Ply]

notdavidspade-

Do the '41s have a toggle switch on the bottom of the dash between the steering wheel and the driver's door? My '36 has one and my former '47 had one. It is a 2 position switch that allows for bright and dim dash lights.

I never knew what it was for when I owned my '47 in high school.

Regards, and congratulations for being back on the road,
Pat O'Connor

[notdavidspade]

I've just put my 41 back on the road and I've retained my 6 volt system.  EVERYTHING on my car is new now and I can happily say that 6V runs fine.  My car starts quickly and the headlights are nice and bright.  The instrument cluster is a bit dim, but I'm sure that could be rectified by changing over to higher output 6V bulbs.  When everything is right, 6V is fine.  In my opinion, most people switch over to 12 volt to fix a wiring problem.

[TodFitch]

Todd:? I want to add turn signals and that is one of the reasons, and also brighter headlights.? Would 6v run the turn signals too?

6v turn signals are just the same as 12v only you use a 6v plug in flasher.
6v sealed beams have just about the same wattage rating as 12v. The big problem is all the corrosion on the wires, connectors and switches. But you will want to fix that anyway. And 6v halogen bulbs are available too.

[1939P8]

Todd:  I want to add turn signals and that is one of the reasons, and also brighter headlights.  Would 6v run the turn signals too?

[Go Fleiter]

Remember the old Radio too, it will not stand 12 V without changements!
Greetings! Go

[TodFitch]

Todd:? I have decided to convert my 1939 P8 to 12 volt.? The wiring I put in is all new from Eggo back in Rhode iSLAND AND THE WIRING WAS FOR 6 V.? Can I use that same wiring for 12 volt, and what besides bulbs would I have to change out?? I suspect the generator, but not sure about starter.? What can you tell me.? Any help would be appreciated.? Gary

6v wire can be used for 12v. Actually it is overkill. No problem there. I've heard that 6v starters will work okay on 12v systems. Light bulbs need to be swapped. You probably want a voltage reducer for the gas gauge. In switching from positive to negative ground you need to swap the sides of your ammeter that wires are connected.

And all breaker point ignition systems are 6v. So you either need to add a ballast resister to the existing system or swap the coil with an internally ballasted one.

Not sure why you would want to go to 12 other than for more electrical power and if you are doing that then you probably want a fairly modern alternator rather than a 12v generator.

If the only reason you are changing is for a modern radio and better starting then you are going through a lot of work for nothing: 6v systems in good condition start the car just fine. And a 10 to 20 watt stereo can be powered from a 6v to 12v inverter. And, as long as you don't want a lot of base thumping power that can be pretty loud.

[1939P8]

Todd:  I have decided to convert my 1939 P8 to 12 volt.  The wiring I put in is all new from Eggo back in Rhode iSLAND AND THE WIRING WAS FOR 6 V.  Can I use that same wiring for 12 volt, and what besides bulbs would I have to change out?  I suspect the generator, but not sure about starter.  What can you tell me.  Any help would be appreciated.  Gary

[TodFitch]

If you stereo sound needs are modest then you can get a 6v positive ground to 12v negative ground inverter and run the stereo off the inverter. If you are looking for 200 watts of pavement shaking bass then you will need to do something more drastic on the power source.

[Roadrunner]

    I Have a question that comes from a question I read on here about 6 or 12 volt conversions.  I recently purchased a 1941 Plymouth 4 door that has a good body, bad floor pans and all wireing needing replaced.  I got this car for my girlfriend.  She wants a good sounding stereo in the car.  She intends on driving the car frequently as possible.  I am partial to retaining the original 6v system to keep it original and simple.  We would like to have tunes in it too.  I understand that original 6v cars tend to have trouble but I intend on replacing all the wireing since now the car is not much more than a nice looking shell.  If you touch the wires the insulation turns to dust.  If I hooked up a battery it would problably short out and burn down >:(  .  I know a new 6v set up worked well in 1941 when it was new.  So a new new 6v will work fine.  The only problem we have is the stereo.  Has it ever been done to run a 6v car and have a low amperage 12v also in the car.  I do not wish to hook up a battery charger to it daily either.  How would you charge the 12v.
    We just bought the car and will be in dismantling stages for some time to come.  I just would like to have a perfect plan for it when it's time to put the old girl back together again and have her looking all new.  Thanks, Steve and Darrien