41 Plymouth Convertible VIN Question

[Jim Benjaminson]

Got the bare frame flipped over and began the process of looking for stamped numbers.  So far, I haven't located a serial number like Ed Peterson found on his '34.  However I found three stampings of the engine number (I'd been told earlier by another member and had it confirmed by a second member) that the engine number is not only stamped on the left rear frame rail, but is also stamped between the running board bracket mountings.  Sure enough, there they were.  This, of course, is a '34 frame.  Not to say the '41 convertible in question had those same stampings.  But if the original paperwork showed the engine number and that number can be confirmed in not one but two or three places then the DMV people should be satisfied they are dealing with the same car and issue the proper paperwork.  I did find that the letter "P" was not stamped as deep as the other letters/numbers -- guess by the time they were getting to this particular car, the "P" was getting worn down.  I never have owned a '41 Plymouth passenger car but I do have two 1940's - they are in storage but I hopefully can get in and look for these stampings to verify Plymouth was still using the same I.D. method in later years.  If anyone reading these posts has a "bare-frame" restoration underway, look closely for I.D. numbers, note where you find them and please contact me.  I am working on an article about this subject for the Plymouth Bulletin and the more information, the better.

[Jim Benjaminson]

Visited with a new club member yesterday that has an original, unmolested 17,000 mile '34 PE.  When I mentioned about the engine number being stamped into the left rear frame rail, we crawled underneath to look and with minor rubbing away of dirt, it was plainly visible at the rear of the axle arch.  Tried to get my '34 bare frame flipped over to look for the serial number but no luck - it had slipped off the blocks and is "buried" in grass - need something stronger than 2 men and a small boy to flip it over!

[Wm Steed]

When I had the body off of the chassis for my '39 conv cpe, I carefully looked for traces of body/engine/serial numbers stamped into the frame, I found NONE!!... I actually did not need them, because all of the correct factory applied data plates were on my car.. My only purpose was to establish if there were numbers stamped into the frame similar to the policy that FORD had followed during the '30's/40's...
I have a complete unrestored '29-30 Dodge sedan in Montana that has not been licensed since '49.. The data plates are missing from the body, however the original engine is in the car.. According to the Standard Catalog of American Cars, the serial number is stamped into the frame, adjacent to the clutch pedal/cowl... Wrong, no number is stamped into the frame...
The body is a "Budd All Steel" however the lower portion of the cowl contains wood, which is in poor condition.. I think the original serial number plate probably became unattached from the rotted wood, falling by the wayside... Bill

[TodFitch]

In discussing numbers stamped into the frame with '34 tech advisor Ed Peterson, he tells me the actual serial number is stamped into the top frame rail at the point where the cowl of the body is mounted to the frame.  In fact, he has a photo showing the actual serial (door post) number stamped at this location.  True, this is for a '34 Plymouth and not . . .

FWIW, I see no evidence of a number stamped on the top of the frame rail on either side in front of where the cowl is mounted to the frame on my '33 PD. However my frame was stripped and painted so if it were lightly stamped it is possible that it could have been hidden by the new paint.

[Jim Benjaminson]

Below the firewall

[Mopar440_6]

The original engine number is stamped into the LEFT rear frame rail - it may be forward of the raise in the frame rail, at the top of it, or at the rear of it -- it will be facing you as if you were changing a tire.  I checked the club data base to see if the car was ever registered with us but it wasn't.

I found some stampings on the outside of both rear frame rails but all I could make out without removing the wheels was "CONV." Thank you for taking the time to check the club database.

Do you or your grandfather have any old insurance policies that would show the serial number?

I'm 99% sure that the car was never insured on an auto policy (maybe under homeowners years ago) so I don't think I'll have any luck in that regard. I will look through the old paperwork again but haven't come up with anything thus far.

...he tells me the actual serial number is stamped into the top frame rail at the point where the cowl of the body is mounted to the frame...FYI - I've been told the actual serial number on the early 4-cylinder cars is located on the left front frame rail, although on the side rail.  The '34 number is on the TOP of the frame rail.

When you say the point where the cowl of the body is mounted to the frame, is this directly below the firewall or somewhere else? I've looked over as much of the frame as I can without removing the body but if there is a chance that I can solve the title problem, I'll pull a body panel or two if necessary. Thanks again for all the help.

[Jim Benjaminson]

In discussing numbers stamped into the frame with '34 tech advisor Ed Peterson, he tells me the actual serial number is stamped into the top frame rail at the point where the cowl of the body is mounted to the frame.  In fact, he has a photo showing the actual serial (door post) number stamped at this location.  True, this is for a '34 Plymouth and not a '41 BUT if Plymouth was stamping the serial number there in '34, it stands to reason it may have still been doing so in later years.  I have a bare '34 chassis although its currently upside down on blocks so I can't confirm this information at this time BUT -- if your door post serial number plate is missing, try looking in that spot.  With the actual serial number you can get the build record from Chrysler Corp. confirming the original engine/body number information which should help in your quest for a proper title for the car.  FYI - I've been told the actual serial number on the early 4-cylinder cars is located on the left front frame rail, although on the side rail.  The '34 number is on the TOP of the frame rail.  Good luck.  If anyone else can confirm a serial number location in this spot (or anywhere else) please post it for all to see.

[Jim Benjaminson]

Do you or your grandfather have any old insurance policies that would show the serial number?  I can tell you your serial number would have been between 11357800 and 11369000 - still a pretty wide spread but if you find a number in any old papers that fit in this sequence then you would know you are on the right track.  Your engine number of P12-474570 also fits into this serial number sequence so you know that was the original engine you replaced.

[Jim Benjaminson]

The original engine number is stamped into the LEFT rear frame rail - it may be forward of the raise in the frame rail, at the top of it, or at the rear of it -- it will be facing you as if you were changing a tire.  I checked the club data base to see if the car was ever registered with us but it wasn't.  Chrysler Historical can only trace a car by its serial number found on the right front door post.

[Wm Steed]

The majority of the States require that all out of state vehicles have the serial/VIN verified prior to completing the transfer.. The requirements for same vary from state to state.
I doubt very much that any state will now recognize an engine number in lieu of a VIN... As I have mentioned in my earlier comments, the P12XXXX prefex on the title will not show up in any data base... This is also true of the body number... 304-xxxx . The 304 designates that the car is a convertible and the rest of the number is a Briggs Manufacturing number.
I would suggest that the best course of action may be to go to the state that issued the current title, apply to that states DMV, or the county/state agency that handles vehicle registration, for "lost registration/paper work.. Once the paperwork is cleaned up on the vehicles "home state" it can be easier to transfer it into a new state...
You might want to think twice about contacting one of the "paper mills" that advertize in many of the car publications that they can supply you with current title, etc.. Many of these companies are not legit.
I can not caution you enough to be very careful how you go about securing a clear title/registration for the vehicle, I have encountered some real nightmares with some of the vehicles I have purchased throughout the years..
I have a friend that recently completed the restoration of a 1937 Ford sedan.. he worked on the car for many years, never bothered to clean up the paper work until the car was done.
When my friend went to the DMV to secure current registration, etc. on the car, he was asked if the engine was the original engine, he replied no, it was a '95... Tilt.. big problem. The state registered the car as a special built '95, which triggered all of the emission standards for a '95, catalitic's, etc., the car now has to be smoged every two years...
I literally could write a book on all of the horrific experiences I have had clearing up the paperwork on some of the vehicles I have purchased during the past twenty years.... Bill 

[plym_46]

so if the document has the car titled by the engine #, and 2 folks have mentioned that the original engine number is stamped into the passenger side frame rail either front or rear, uncovering it and getting a rubbing of the "original" number should satisfy PA. A picture of the source of the rubbing would also likely help in convincing bureaucrats of its authenticity.  Or failing that stamping the engine number into a piece of sheet metal than getting a rubbing of that might suffice.  Also I do not know about PA, but most DMV's in non urban NY are under the auspices of the county clerk or in your case the borough office.  And if you go to three different offices you will get different answers based on which clerk you speak to.  It might be helpful direct your inquiry to the main vehicle Department office.   If Pa does like some other states, in that they require a State Policeman to do a visual inspection of your car to verify things, You might want to start hanging out at the local State Police office and see what they might have to say about the situation.  Usually when they realize they are looking at an honest person trying o overcome a hurdle and not some chop shop switch vin plates and boosting cars for parts or export, they may be supportive of your attempt.  I know that removing vin plates for any reason is a federal deal, dealing with Serial umber plates may not be federal but might also be felonious in nature, so I would set aside fake serial plates unless or utill it's a last resort.

There is also the option whereby you apply to some states with less stringent requirements and turn your Va document into a (insert State here) title that PA will recognize.  Search Title Services on the inter web.  Also inquire if Pa allows you to bond a vehicle to deal with the title process.  You have to be carefull with the state issued options like Kit car, special built, Street Rod, because they open up the whole emissions, safety equipment, arena as they usually require those items installed or updated.  One other item sometimes the AAA club can assist in these types of situation. 

[Wm Steed]

I have had a lot of experience with "undocumented vehicles"... I have the good fortune to be able to travel around the Western U.S. on a regular basis looking for old cars and parts, I have been known to purchase as many as six cars during a period of 12 months.. Usually all of these vehicles are pre '53 and the majority of them have not been registered since sometime in the '60's, a '30 Dodge I have has not been registered since '49.. The paper work on these vehicles is long gone, so I do to two things; I make sure that all of the VIN/Ser # tags are on the vehicle, I fill out a Bill of Sale, blank copies of which I carry with me..
I have been involved with the restoration of two '39 Plymouth conv, coupes, mine and the one I have referred to as being the "Alabama Car" in my "39 Plymouth conv coupe" thread here on the Plymouth Bulletin.. The Alabama car was a mess to title here in California.. It had a Alabama Bill of Sale, no tile or registration.. The Bill of Sale had been Notarized, however, the engine and body number had been used in lieu of the VIN, this tag was present on the right front door post, below the upper hinge..
The California DMV would not accept the Bill of Sale because neither of the numbers shown on the Bill of Sale showed up in their data base.. There-in lays the problem.. With the advent of the internet and the Information Highway, the State DVM's have access to the VINS for most vehicles. Since very few manufactures identified their vehicles with the engine number, the DMV's won't usually accept same as a VIN..
I was able to clear up the Alabama car problem by getting a letter from Alabama that stated that they did not issue titles on vehicles built prior to 1972. With the help of the information contained in the Standard Catalog of American Cars I was able to prove to the DMV that the "serial number" shown on the door jamb plate was correct for a Detroit built car..
I currently know of two cars, one in Australia and the other in New Zealand which were imported from the U.S. and had paper work which used the engine number in lieu of the serial number for identification. The guys that have these cars are really having problems get their cars registered in the respective countries. I have been working with a man in Australia for about five years on his project to restore a '39 Plym conv. cpe which he imported from the U.S. Prior to the exportation of the car from the U.S. "Noel" contacted me because of my very active 39 Plymouth thread on the PB.. I assisted him with some parts which were shipped to the vehicle shipping agent in Long Beach, CA.. During the course of several emails between Noel and I, I asked him about the paper work on the car.. Noel told me that he had purchased the car from a man in Tenn. and that everything was in order, title/registration and a Bill of Sale... I asked Noel for the serial/body number for the car...
When I checked the numbers against the info contained in the Standard Catalog I found that the numbers were for a SEDAN!!.. Noel contacted the seller of the car in Tenn, who denied any knowledge of the incorrect number plates which did not match the numbers shown on the paper work.. I told Noel to NOT SHIP the vehicle until the mystery was cleared up... After several phone calls and emails the man in Tenn said that his mechanic had made a mistake, the number plates had been removed from the body because they were going to repaint the car, Noel has purchased it "as is" so the number plates were put back on the car. The correct number plates were sent to Long Beach and the shipper installed them prior to putting the car in the container.. Hmmmmm? was this an honest mistake, or an attempt to keep the convertible ID plates?
OK, now back to the problem at hand.. During the complete off the chassis restorations of two '39 Plym's conv's I never noted any serial numbers stamped into the frames.. I do know that Ford made it a habit to stamp serial numbers into the frame in several places, one of which was near the steering gears and the other is generally stamped over the rear axle hump.. Of course Ford cars can't be identified by their "serial numbers" because they mean nothing.. The number was assigned to the transmission when it was affixed to the engines at the Detroit engine plant..
Since the VIN tag is missing from the '41, and the number does not show on any paper work that the family has, it just might be that the car will loose it's identity and have to settle for an assigned number from the State... Sometimes there is no other answer to the problem... Bill 

 
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[Mopar440_6]

I've heard that the later cars have the serial number stamped on the frame near the front passenger wheel as RC Down states.

In addition, the original engine number should be stamped on the frame on the driver's side near or on the kick up for the rear axle.

Since the original title information seems to be based on the engine number, you might want to see if you can find that number on the frame near the rear axle. A tracing of that (or having some state official witness it) might be all you need.

I do wish that we'd stop using "VIN" when discussing these cars: Plymouth started using VIN numbers in 1959. Any thing earlier had up to three totally unrelated numbers: A serial number (on door hinge post and possibly stamped on front of frame), engine number (possibly stamped on rear of frame) and body number. Some states identified the car by engine number, some by serial number. And there have been cars apparently registered by body number. Basically a confusing mess.

I apologize for the use of "VIN" but anyone who isn't intimately familiar with these cars (or cars in general for that matter) usually recognizes the term. I guess I've gotten used to explaining this to people who aren't gearheads.

As for my '41, I've checked the frame a few times but have never come up with any of the identification numbers.

with the #'s you have you should be able to get the builder's card from WPC museum with the correct vin # or am I mistaken. Also the stamping on the frame should be over the rear passenger wheel.
captbrian '41

I have contacted the WPC Historical Society and was told that all of their records are cataloged by serial number and that is the only way that the build card can be found.

[captbrian41]

with the #'s you have you should be able to get the builder's card from WPC museum with the correct vin # or am I mistaken. Also the stamping on the frame should be over the rear passenger wheel.
captbrian '41

[TodFitch]

If I am not mistaken, look on the frame behind the passenger side front wheel, the vin # should be there also stamped in the frame

I've heard that the later cars have the serial number stamped on the frame near the front passenger wheel as RC Down states.

In addition, the original engine number should be stamped on the frame on the driver's side near or on the kick up for the rear axle.

Since the original title information seems to be based on the engine number, you might want to see if you can find that number on the frame near the rear axle. A tracing of that (or having some state official witness it) might be all you need.

I do wish that we'd stop using "VIN" when discussing these cars: Plymouth started using VIN numbers in 1959. Any thing earlier had up to three totally unrelated numbers: A serial number (on door hinge post and possibly stamped on front of frame), engine number (possibly stamped on rear of frame) and body number. Some states identified the car by engine number, some by serial number. And there have been cars apparently registered by body number. Basically a confusing mess.

[Mopar440_6]

Bill - This is where the issue lies. The title that my grandfather has for the car shows the original engine number. The title is still valid but because it is out of state, PA will not accept it without either a tracing of the VIN or a physical inspection of the VIN plate. We have made copies of the VA title and have discussed with PA DMV. They told us that the only way to do this would be to use a special construction, state issued identification tag which would also permanently brand the title which is why I am reluctant to go that route. Based on a letter (circa 1988) from Jim Benjaminson the engine number on the title matches the body number on the firewall. But we do not have the original serial number written down anywhere (on the title or otherwise). I have been trying to track down the original serial number for the past couple years and keep coming up empty handed. If I can determine the original serial number, I have a blank serial number plate that was obtained by my grandfather from someone in the POC and my problem would be solved.

Engine Number: P12-474570
Body Number: 304-9942


RC - I have heard that before and have checked the frame thoroughly and have not found the serial number anywhere. To my knowledge only the pre-1940 car frames were stamped and after 1940 only the truck frames were stamped. However, I will check again just to be sure...

[Wm Steed]

Foot note to my original comments...
The engine number and the Serial number on the old cars is never the same... Do not attempt to stamp an engine number onto a plate and affix same to the right windshield post.
The Ser/VIN contains all of the numbers that pertain to the production of the vehicle...  i.e. Detroit.. 111---113, Los Angles, 326--329, Evansville, 201--201, etc..
In the case of your convertible, there should have been a body number that was located on the engine side of the firewall, above the steering column... This body number is very important for the identification of accessories... Bill

[RC Drown]

If I am not mistaken, look on the frame behind the passenger side front wheel, the vin # should be there also stamped in the frame

[Wm Steed]

One of the key factors in your favor is that you claim to have a valid title in your grandfathers name which shows the correct engine and serial number for the car.. Generally speaking, titles never expire, only the registration/license tags  expires..
My suggestion would be to purchase a new serial number plate.. They are available on ebay.. Stamp the numbers shown on the title into the plate and attach same in the the correct location on the right side windshield pillar.. Originally these plates were attached with small slotted screws.
The engine number is another matter: Most states do not recognize engine numbers, only serial/VIN's.. If you have a correct style of engine for the vehicle year and it has a number which is not P12- i.e P-12- 1001/535085 then I would suggest that you grind off the number that is on the block, stamp the correct number into the block..
I know that what I am suggesting can be considered to be contrary to the laws of many states... If you go to your DMV with this problem, they will most likely tell you that you need to have new numbers assigned to the vehicle.. I would be reluctant to do this, you'll loose the original identification of the vehicle... Do not give the title to the DMV, once it's gone, it's gone for ever...
If you would like more info about this subject, PM me...
During the course of restoring my '39 Plym conv. cpe, I obtained a lot of info about the 37-41 Plym conv.s... I would be glad to share same with you...    Bill   

[Mopar440_6]

Hey guys, its been a while since I've been on here. So long, in fact, that I had to get a new screen name (used to be 41PlymVert). Anyway, I have a 1941 Plymouth Convertible that my grandfather originally purchased in 1972.  The car is approximately 3/4s finished and I would like to get the car completed soon. The biggest roadblock has been the fact that when my grandfather purchased the car in 72, the state of Virginia titled cars by the number stamped on the engine block. Through the restoration, the original engine block was found to be cracked and was discarded. In addition, the serial number plate on the door post was lost (probably during media blasting and paint). However, the engine number on the title and the body number correspond to the same car. Two years ago as my wedding present, my grandfather gave me the car. The problem is, even with the valid VA title in my grandfather's name, to transfer the car from VA to Pennsylvania where I live, the DMV requires a VIN tracing. Does anyone think it would be a problem to stamp the engine number to a blank plate and attach that to the door post? My thoughts are that since the original engine number and the body number match, the original engine number would simply become the new serial number. I just want to make sure that I'm not missing something. Any information or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.