Newest Plymouth - sort of

Chrycoman · June 28, 2010, 01:12:13 AM

Robert,

In getting out all the interior photos I forgot about the paint code. It should be 202-32535. Don't know if the error was due to my fingers on the keyboard or the bifocals resting on my nose!

I am attaching a scan from part of the 1941 CIL Chrysler of Canada colour sheet. It shows the chip for 202-32535, Aviator Blue Metallic, and the one for 202-33039, Regal Red Metallic. I believe you were mentioning something about a maroon or burgundy colour.

Bill
Vancouver, BC

RobertKB · June 27, 2010, 10:47:43 AM

Bill, what can I say but a heartfelt thankyou. I have stored all of this information and will use it when restoring the car or pass it on to the next owner. The interior pictures are invaluable to me as there is no interior and your pictures and the ones from the brochure show it very clearly. My car has all the trim including around the windows so trim level matches the D21 SP on the firewall tag. I have got the new motor mount in, put a fan on with an old fan belt and the motor turns freely. I now need to put a battery in and try the starter and see if there is spark. Need to get a key cut as well. Lots to do. I will attempt to run it off a small container of gas and not the tank until I have checked out the tank further. It appears OK as it had a cap on it and there is no sign of rustout. I would guess whatever is in it needs to be cleaned out though. Lots of fun ahead!! Thanks once again for your time and effort for me on this car. It really is appreciated!

Chrycoman · June 27, 2010, 07:00:09 AM

On the exterior, virtually all of the Dodge sheet metal was shared with Plymouth, right down to the front fenders. One of the photos I am sending on this email shows the front end and you can see the Plymouth grille opening behind the Dodge grille. The differences between Kingsway (D20), Kingsway Special (D20S), DeLuxe (D21) and DeLuxe Special (D21S) mirrored that of Plymouth Roadking (P11), Roadking Special (P11S), DeLuxe (P12) and Custom (P12S).

The Dodge Kingsway (D20) was the cheapest Dodge in Canada, similar to the U.S. Plymouth P11 (no name). The only trim down the side was the strip from the hood, along the doors and onto the rear quarters. There was no trim around the windshield and the centre strip was in white. The car had no vent windows in the front doors and the rear quarter windows did not open. The Kingsway also came with one sun visor and one windshield wiper, both on the drivers side. The bumpers had two guards at the outer sides. The Kingsway Special (D20S) added vent windows when introduced later in the year.

The DeLuxe (D21) added trim along the running boards, around the windshield, windshield centre bar and a strip just below the sude windows from the A pillar to the rear quarters. The front doors had vent windows, there were two windshield wipers and sun visors, and the rear quarter windows opened. Bumpers had buffer plates at the outer edges instead of the guards along with one centre guard. The DeLuxe Special (D21S) added trim around the side windows.

There were differences in the interior, in particular the radio opening - simple panel on the Kingsway, chrome grille opening on the DeLuxe, and all had the series name on the panel or grille. Upholstery and door panels also differed between the series.

Three photos - Kingsway, DeLuxe and DeLuxe Special

Bill
Vancouver, BC

Chrycoman · June 27, 2010, 06:34:18 AM

This time I am sending along some illustrations from a 1941 Dodge brochure, printed August 1940, introducing the new models. The one with the instrument panel lists the models offered and does not include the Kingsway Special which was introduced in November or December, 1940.

Chrycoman · June 27, 2010, 06:29:23 AM

Attached (I hope) are some photos from a 1941 DeLuxe Special taken back in 1976. These were taken in black and white and for some reason they did not come out well. Had that problem with another roll about the same time. Colour film got great resilts. Anyway . . .

First are photos of the drivers door and the rear seat. The upholstery on the 1941 Dodge D21 DeLuxe Special was shared with the Canadian Plymouth P12 Custom and was similar to that used on the American Plymouth P12 Special DeLuxe.

Similarly the Dodge D21 DeLuxe interior was shared with the Canadian Plymouth P12 DeLuxe and was simiilar to the U.S. P11D DeLuxe. Finally, the base Dodge D20 Kingsway shared its interior with the Canadian Plymouth P11 Roadking and was similar to the U.S. Plymouth P11 base series.

Also shown are some photos of the instrument panel. I will have a list of the instrument panel parts shared with Plymouth, those shared with the Dodge Luxuryliner and those that are unique to Dodge tomorrow.

RobertKB · June 22, 2010, 11:13:25 AM

Thanks, Bill, you are a wealth of knowledge. Interesting to know about the metallic lacquer. The doors are metallic so I believe the car is not only original colour but what surface paint is left is from the factory. You mention the code once as 202-32535 and a little later the last five digits are 32525. I am just wondering if the last two digits are 35 or 25?

Glad to know about the seats. I will put the ones from the '48 in for now. Any interior pictures would be welcome as I have no idea what the door panels looked like for the '41. I will likely leave the doors without panels for the time being to see if I can get it running first. Needs a new front rubber motor mount before attempting anything as the one there is broken. I have a good used one I will just pop in there.

Sounds like looking for a new lens and covering for the gauges will be a Canadian only search. Actually, there is a club member here in town whose son redoes these lenses professionally for a very reasonable price and I will likely go that route. This is assuming I do anything to the car beside trying to get it to run. It is tempting to think of restoration but I know what is involved as I did a total body off restoration on my '38 Chrysler (see pictures). Not sure I want to go there again plus I already have three old Mopars.

Thanks again for your help. I have taken the information about the paint down and will either use it or pass it on to the next owner. I still think Burgundy would look good on it!

Robert

Chrycoman · June 22, 2010, 03:59:49 AM

Hi Robert,

Well, as you know, your car is the 2,783rd D21 4-door sedan built. The original colour, 1580, was Aviator Blue Metallic. It was a dark blue, and if the inside of your doors and the door openings are a metallic colour, that's it. The CIL Duco code was 202-32535.

CIL was formed in 1926 by merging DuPont and ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) Canadian holdings into one firm. Thus CIL handled DuPont paints and used their codes when CIL began making auto paint in Canada in 1936. The "202" is for a metallic lacquer (Chrysler Canada did not switch to enamel until 1946) while the 32525 is the colour. As it is a five digit code, the colour is American and not a unique Canadian colour, which would have used a four digit code. Chrysler of Canada's codes were in the 8000's.

Unfortunately I have nothing on Canadian trim codes prior to 1949 (or 1950, just forget). The Canadian parts catalogue lists American codes and advises Canadian dealers to quote the serial number when ordering trim material. They still had the build records back then. Serial numbers for the D21 started at 9503606 and ended at 9510870 - 7,265. Your car, 9508373, is the 4,768th built.

The 1940-41 body was basically reskinned for 1942, with the sides losing the flat sides for some curves. The seats should fit with no problem and the door panels should work. If the 1940-41 doors are a different size from 1942-48, the difference would be so slight it would take a purist to notice anything was not quite right. I do have some interior photos of the 1941 Dodge back in the 1970's. Will get them scanned and post them.

By the way, the instruments for the Plymouth and Dodge are the same - it is the lens and housing covering the gauges that is different. Chrysler of Canada did the same in 1939.

Bill,
Vancouver, BC

RobertKB · June 21, 2010, 04:19:14 PM

Hi Bill,

I went out to check the tag on the firewall and this is the information that was there.

Model - D21 SP 4DR SEDAN (I assume this would be the Deluxe Special)
Body NO. - 2783
Paint Code - 1580
Trim Code - APX

Serial Number - 9508373

I am guessing you know what the paint colour is and also the trim level. I would appreciate knowing so in the future, IF I paint it and decide to go original colour I'll know what it is. I also think the car would look nice in burgundy. Not shown in the dash pictures is the radio that came with the car when I bought it and looks pretty decent. I think this was a well optioned car at the time as it must have had a clock as well but that has gone AWOL.

Also, Bill, I have another question. Except for the headliner there is no interior in this car. The previous owner was going to rod it and said the seats were in bad shape and threw them out along with the door panels. I have a 1948 Dodge D25 four door sedan parts car and am wondering if those seats will fit in to the '41 as a straight bolt in? Were the body shells the same as the '42 which was the same as the P15's and D25's of 1946-48? It would be a solution to my problem for the time being anyway.

Thanks for any help in advance,
Robert

Chrycoman · June 21, 2010, 01:29:37 AM

Quote from: RobertKB on June 20, 2010, 12:27:00 AM
This is another Canadian Plodge or Plymouth in Dodge clothing. It is a 1941 Dodge D21 which is Plymouth based but all the trim is Dodge. Nice straight survivor and has absolutely no rot in the rockers and only a tiny hole just beneath the gas pedal in the floor. All trim is present and accounted for which as we all know, trim is the hardest thing to find for these old girls. Engine appears to be original as is starts with D21. It needs some TLC but I hope, if the engine runs, to make it a driveable survivor. Engine turns but has not run since 1964. There must have been three levels of Dodge for that year as there was also a D19 and a D20. I don't plan on keeping the old girl long term as I already have three other old Mopars but it might be fun to see if I can at least make it driveable. It will have a for sale sign in the window wherever it goes.

Yes, there were three levels of Dodge in Canada in 1941, and each came in two sub-series :

D19 - Luxuryliner and Luxuryliner Special
D20 - Kingsway and Kingsway Special
D21 - DeLuxe and DeLuxe Special

The D20 was also built in the U.S. for export markets while the D21 was a Canada-only model

The D21 models came as a business coupe, 2-door sedan and 4-door sedan in both series, with the Special also offering the coupe with auxiliary seats and a LWB 8-passenger sedan. The D21 DeLuxe Special 4-door sedan sold for $1,318.

Any chance of getting the info from the firewall data plate? Have photos of a 1941 DeLuxe Special take in the 1970's. It was body #3299 of 5,279 D21 4-door sedans built.

The speedo is correct for a Canadian-built 1941 "Plodge". The knob to the left of the "Rear Lights" knob is the throttle.

The Canadian D20 was based on the Plymouth P11 (Roadking and Roadking Special), while the D21 was the P12 (DeLuxe and Custom). The P12 was offered in the same models as the D21.

Bill
Vancouver, BC

RC Drown · June 20, 2010, 06:45:16 PM

Thanks,

the instrument cluser looks similar to the other Chrylser products of that period, but I have never seen a speedometer like that.

Very interesting, I must admit,

Thanks again,
Bob

RobertKB · June 20, 2010, 05:21:07 PM

Bob, here you go.

RC Drown · June 20, 2010, 09:57:21 AM

Looks like you found a true suvivor, keep us posted on your progress

When you get a chance, can you post a few photos of the dash?

Thanks,
Bob

RobertKB · June 20, 2010, 12:27:00 AM

This is another Canadian Plodge or Plymouth in Dodge clothing. It is a 1941 Dodge D21 which is Plymouth based but all the trim is Dodge. Nice straight survivor and has absolutely no rot in the rockers and only a tiny hole just beneath the gas pedal in the floor. All trim is present and accounted for which as we all know, trim is the hardest thing to find for these old girls. Engine appears to be original as it starts with D21. It needs some TLC but I hope, if the engine runs, to make it a driveable survivor. Engine turns but has not run since 1964. There must have been three levels of Dodge for that year as there was also a D19 and a D20. I don't plan on keeping the old girl long term as I already have three other old Mopars but it might be fun to see if I can at least make it driveable. It will have a for sale sign in the window wherever it goes.