Welding?

[elmo]

sorry mark but i,m not from OZ, but NEW ZEALAND , thats the little country 1200 miles acrosss the ditch from OZ, in other words 1200 miles off the east coast of Australia, and so far we dont seem to have the same problem you guys have with every one wanting to sue some one else, yet!.  I actualy agree with the law for saftey reasons , i,ve seen some very poor welding done on steering parts that i wouldnt like my family,s life to depend on.
Rex

[POC-Admin]

TIG is the most like OXY-Acetylene but with the advantages of MIG - that is that it is not damaging to modern sheet metal.  That damage comes from the expansion and over-heating of the sheet.  On older cars like most of ours Gas welding is fine - make sure the instructor teaches you how to "shrink" with a gas torch too.  Gas is very versatile but with the right wire, MIG can be too.  TIG is about the strongest for things like pipe but takes more time to learn how to do the right way.

On the illegal to weld on steering in OZ - that is one of those laws that really makes little sense except to lawyers who want to sue the crap out of someone.  I am sure that it may be illegal in some places in the US too but that does not stop some guy from doing it. We all need to know our limitations, I have seen a lot of "Street Rods" and other patched together driver cars to know that give a guy a hammer - the whole world is a nail, give that guy a welder and anything can be welded.

[Andy Wylie]

Bonkers if you learn to oxy acetylene weld the other types become much easier and it is possible to do filler free repairs. Wire feeds became necessary for modern high tensile panels and are useful for tacking joints but the weld is hard and can't be hammered as you go without grinding. MIG is also prone to cracking next to the weld because it's not malleable like OA.

[bonkers55]

Ha ha! It's the part about "teaching an old dog new tricks" that I am worried about! :-[ 

Nope! Not doing anything that would have to do with the steering!!!!!  I don't think we need to do that anyway---but if we did---someone certified would be hired to do that part!!!!!

If it's steering or anything "safety" concerned like that---I wouldn't trust myself enough! If it's equipment pulled behind and noone else would be involved then I wouldn't mind it. 

[elmo]

i forgot to add on the end , as for using grinders , cut off wheels etc , it comes down to basic saftey practise and common sence

[elmo]

I don,t know about the US , but here in NZ it is illegal to weld any thing to do with the steering , unless it is certified by a qualified welder after . I taught myself how to gas and arc weld back in the early sixties , and have never had any problems , but do admit that i have struggled with adapting to mig welding , which my kids tell me is simple , there must be someting in the saying you can,t teach an old dog new tricks . i bought a mig but leave all the welding needed with it to the kids (it,s payback time)

[bonkers55]

How true -- how true!!! My Dad was ALWAYS a stickler on having the CORRECT equipment and the right kind of supplies. He never "Mickeymoused".   Dad was not a "typical" farmer but a true perfectionist and was one of those guys who could do just about anything he set out to do.  Remodeled the house, built the cabinets, built his own shop, own haybarn, raised his own grain bins, welded, did terrace and dirt work, worked on his own dozers and tractors, and repaired his own equipment.  A lot of the neighbors would come to him to get stuff fixed or ask questions.  I could really kick myself for not sticking around closer and learning from him. 

I wouldn't even attempt to try welding without attending a certified school or course. Way too many things can go wrong so quickly. And I don't understand the "guts" of weldingl--so I need to start at the basic level and work up.  I think I will be able to pick it up fairly well---I hope anyway.  Am NOT buying a welder until I see if I even like doing it first.  I remember (about 40 yrs ago) Dad letting me try a weld.  I just thought it was cool to see his welds.  We had a sale of the equipment in October (that's where I got the 55 Plymouth) and his used equipment sold very well--and his repairs were still holding.

[captbrian41]

I am a retired pipe fitter that was National Pipe Certified in stick, mig and tig for 40 years and I have welded and fabricated everthing from 48" pipe with 1" wall thickness to sheet metal so thin you could almost see through it and fit, preparation, heat and the right equipment is paramount to doing the right job. That having been said another important part of the equation is the mechanical ability to actually cut out a piece of rusted sheet metal and fit in a new piece. Grinders with wafer abrasive wheels can remove a finger or gouge the skin on a forearm faster than they can scratch the surface of the metal you are working on if not held and handled properly and get them into a tight space and the results could be devastating. The sparks from this sort of cutting application can bounce off everthing in the immediate area and most likely wind up on your skin and worse in your eyes if you are not properly protected. Oxy-acetylene (and if you're lucky enough to have a plasma cutter) can burn you and your workplace down if not used carefully. Portable equipment to take into a field or use in a remote location can also be very costly and more than likely will sit and gather dust after the initial enthusiasm has worn off
I'm not trying to scare people with this thread just inform and ask that anyone thinking along these lines to take stock of their own skill levels and proceed accordingly. Welding is more than just running a successful bead on a piece of metal. The money for equipment and time for schooling could be better invested in the car if it is a one time restoration and result in the car getting on the road in a timely fashion. There is more than enough to tinker with on an antique or vintage vehicle and give the owner plenty of satisfaction in the end.
All of what has been written in this post is good advice and remember the words of that famous police officer from the SFPD a man's got to know his limitations.
captbrian41,
Brian K.

[POC-Admin]

Be very aware that frame, suspension and other Safety important welding should never be done by a rank amateur.  My dad was a professional welder, pipe certified etc. and he taught me to weld when I was about eight or nine, but I am not going to weld something in my steering linkage and trust it to keep me alive.  Body welding or just attachments that don't matter if they fall off are good to work on but keep it safe.

The biggest mistake my dad kept telling me over and over was to gob the weld on and not make it flow.  Penetration is what makes the weld strong and even the type of wire or rod used makes a big difference in the ultimate strength of the final product.

Mark

[plym_46]

We have a saying around here, "There is nothing in the world more dangerous than a farmer with a welder!!!!" But there is nothing more useful on a farm than a welder.  You may also want to check the local welders supply place as they will give demonstrations and lessons as well.  If you are going to be doing heavy repairs on farm equipment the local College or tech school course is probably a good option, as you will want to learn all about heat settings, rod selection and the ever important penetration necessary for strong, servicable, and safe welds, and they might even teach you stuff like gusseting and fishplating and other usefull stuff.  And you would probably want to invest in a stick welder or good heavy duty mig/gas set up.  For sheet metal stuff a light duty wire welder will do just fine for welding in floors and other sheet metal.  A flanger is usfull tool and using the plug welding techique is a handy skill. 

You can teach your self a lot with a wire welder by practicing on a door or hood cast off from a body shop.  check out the welders at Tractor Supply or Farm and  Fleet.  But like it was said there is no substitute for practice and frequency and repetition.

And maybe if you are lucky you got some of your dad's welding genes.  I unfortunately had none passed down to me,  So if live by another old saying.

If you can't weld good, make sure you weld a lot.  I have learned that on old rust thinned auto body stuff, you need to crank down the heat and crank up the wire feed speed.  If you get the wire going fast enough you can many times catch up with the blow out.

Ane my friend who owns a restoration shop taught me about using sheet copper as a backer when plug welding thin stuff.  since it conducts heat well, and it doesn't weld, clamping it behind where you can really helps preventing blow out.

[bonkers55]

Thank you for all of your replies! I will take them into consideration. 

I haven't signed up yet--but I think I will.  I could use the knowledge at least weekly on the farm I think.  Right now there are some gate panels that need tacked in a few places and also the tractor loader needs a minor repair too.  Sooooo..... if I don't turn "chicken"--- I think I could use the experience.  And if I by chance was halfway decent welder---then I could do some on the car maybe. 

[RC Drown]

Here is a photo that I took this Spring of my son's '68 Chevy one ton flat bed dump.  He had replaced both cab corners, the floor and rocker panels by using the Hobart welder.  Like John mentioned, once it ia all welded, ground down, then the body putty is used for the finish look before painting

[John Hendricks]

My welding saga is a little different than previously presented.  I have a 72 Toyota Land cruiser that I have had since new and about 5 years ago decided to restore it. The lower body was lace all around the edges.  I took the car down to essentials - frame off to the blasters, etc.  I boulght a  $9 air cutoff tool from Harbor Freight, and after having the body blasted set it back on the frame and started in with the cutoff tool.  Found an outfit it Texas that remakes sheet metal parts, so I had the new metal.  I cut everything off about waist high all around the body up to the cowl.  Last welding class was 7th grade shop about 50 + years before.  Talked to my secretary's husband who was a welder and he suggested getting a Hobart MIG welder and practice on something.  So I repaired the wheel barrows, horse feed tubs etc, then did some reading and started in - cutiing measuring and welding dot, dot ,dot, .... etc to get minimal warping.  a long story short even I was amazed at how good it looks.  My friend who is a painter did some touch up with filler - no, it is not possible to weld in new sheet metal without filler- and now I have a new Land Cruiser with straighter sides than it had from the factory- new door sills, new floors etc.  Try it - u will be impressed how easy it is.  I could send u some before and after shoots.

[RC Drown]

When my son was still in High School I bought a wire welder from Sears, not the cheap one, but not expensive either.  Over time he became a very good welder with lots of time spent practicing.  He went to College for auto mechanics and is now empoyed as one.  He, like Bill says you have to keep at to be good at it..  If you have a chance to take the class, I would by all means, then practice, practice, and more practice

Hope this helps,
Bob

[Wm Steed]

I will have to second GO's comments with a little added thought.
The welding class offered at your local college will most likely be of little use to you in the restoration of a car. A class in body/fender repair could be of value, however only if the class is geared to body restoration in lieu of collision repair.
The sons of a couple friends took a class in body repair at their local college, their thinking being that they could assist their fathers with the restoration of old cars.... Wrong!
The courses offed at the Votec schools are geared to newer car collision repair, because the courses are sponsored by new car dealers and/or car manufactures....Bill

[Go Fleiter]

You have to invest a lot of hours to learn, and if You don?t weld frequently, You will never keep the professional level of a guy doing it every day. I have a small electric welder and didn?t  use it for 2 years. I had good results than, but last weekend I was no longer able to reach even near that quality. Exercise was lacking.

  On the other hand, depending on Your situation, maybe You will weld often and keep Your skills.
Plus, good welding takes time ond money if done by a professionals.
Greetings! Go

[bonkers55]

Okay, my Dad was an excellent welder but he passed away three years ago.  I failed to learn his techniques from him which I now know was a HUGE mistake on my part!  A College in my area is offering a beginning welding class starting in January. Since I have Dad's 55 Plymouth and we need to restore it---is a welding class going to prove helpful to me -- just before I spend the money and investing time taking the class---I was just wondering if it would be that helpful to me on the restoration process?  What are the opinions of those who have done their own restoration and own welding? I know the class will prove helpful to me no matter what---but I am kinda on the fence about taking it----it's a two hour drive one way for me----but it is only 4 or 5 Saturdays.

My question to all of you is---would you recommend me taking the class?  Hope you don't mind me asking as I have no one to bounce ideas off of anymore.  THanks!!!!