Broke bolt

Bob · April 05, 2009, 11:13:03 AM

Carmen,

Glad that all systems are go again, good for you

Carmen · April 05, 2009, 11:10:09 AM

Final update on this almost nightmare. Spent the day putting everything back together. Had the carb rebuilt, replaced all heater and radiator hoses. Back to running order. Once again thanks to all.

Carmen

elmo · April 04, 2009, 01:31:34 AM

carmen thats good news they can be (to put it mildly a pain )just a small hint , when you put the new one in put some sealer on it before you screw it in , as it is tapped right through in to the water jacket and is liable to leak if you don't. any good engineering shop should be able to supply you with a stud as long as you can give them the size, which on measuring a spare head i have should be 2 1/2'' x 3/8 with a SAE thread one end the other is a coarse thread , what it would be in the US i don't know but here in NZ a british Whitworth fits perfactly,

Plymouth-guy · April 03, 2009, 01:21:28 PM

CONGRATS! Feels good, doesnt it?

If you need help figuring the stud size out, just holler. You just need to tell us the length.

Carmen · April 03, 2009, 11:13:15 AM

GREAT NEWS I GOT THE BROKEN STUD OUT HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY :D :D :D :D :D :D

I really want to thank all of you for your help. Just having someone to share the pain really meant a lot to me.

Thanks Again

Carmen

Did I tell you guys how HAPPY I am? :D :D :D :D :D

TodFitch · April 03, 2009, 02:04:20 AM

Quote from: Carmen on April 02, 2009, 07:44:11 PM
As an update. I got the other side nut off. I use heat and Kroil then heat some more. Done for the day don't want to push my luck.

Will let you know how I make out with the broken bolt.?

When I do get it off is that bolt hard to come by?

Carmen

As Plymouth-guy mentioned it is a stud (at least it is on my 1933). I don't have parts books newer than 1949 so I can't help on the part number but it is likely that the number is pretty low (i.e. the part was introduced into the Chrysler numbering system in the early days). If so then one of the older parts books should have it and those old books list the threads, length, material and finish. Everything you need to know to buy a replacement.

Almost all studs are available today from the commercial fastener supply companies. But if you know the threads and length you can buy an appropriate bolt (correct threads on one end and long enough shank), cut it to size and thread the other end. I did that for a few accessory mounting studs on my engine where I did not want to wait for a mail order place to send me one.

Plymouth-guy · April 02, 2009, 11:15:08 PM

Okay, here's the deal Carmen: I was afraid of this, but the stud is listed in Group 18 of the all the catalogs along with other parts recognizable (head bolts, brass line elbows, roll pins, etc.) and non-descript (bolts, molding clips and, of course, studs).

However, there is hope. I looked in Grp 18 in my '28-33 and '36-54 catalogs. I jumped to the '59 and then up to my '75 catalog and all have listed a few studs with part numbers from 1930. A group of these studs have the same numbers 1930 to the seventies (and undoubtedly beyond). They have the dimensions listed ie, 3/8 x 18 x 2 1/2 followed by the part number. These numbers may have superseded since the "good ol' days" of the seventies, but, no doubt you can still get these.

You say you got the "other side nut off". Does that mean you got the nut off or the stud itself? If you could determine the length and the pitch of your stud, there should be no problem getting another.

It's things like these that make you appreciate all the more when you are merrily cruising down the road, trouble-free.

Pandanom · April 02, 2009, 11:03:43 PM

It's not a bolt. It is a stud. Should be an easy find.

Plymouth-guy · April 02, 2009, 08:24:07 PM

I can check my '36-54 MoPar Parts Catalog. My guess is that they used it for years.

Carmen · April 02, 2009, 07:44:11 PM

As an update. I got the other side nut off. I use heat and Kroil then heat some more. Done for the day don't want to push my luck.

Will let you know how I make out with the broken bolt.

When I do get it off is that bolt hard to come by?

Carmen

Plymouth-guy · April 02, 2009, 12:32:10 AM

If you get a fountain of coolant, you probably drilled too far! ;)

MRR41 COUPE · April 01, 2009, 10:22:04 PM

? I work in a factory in maintenance and breaking a bolt off is common and not that big of a deal, believe me it happens all the time. The important thing is don't get mad, think of it as a little project.
You do have something going for you, the broken bolt is facing upwards and it is to the front of the engine, the broken bolt could not be in a better place. The majority of bolts break off on the bottom in a hard to reach place. Believe me you couldn't of picked a better spot, as of now your ahead of the game.
After the bolt soaks for a while try the visegrips a mentioned above, this can work if the reason for the break is the head was rusty and the rest of the stud is in good shape. This does not work too often, but does at times.? The problem with double threaded studs( threaded at both ends? and no threads in the middle) is that they bottom out in the threaded hole, this makes them tight in the hole even after they break off. I don't know about the design of the head but more than likely its a dead end hole.
? I would stay away from heat, it works, but you don't want to damage the head, you must know what your doing.
? Here's what I would do next, it sounds like the wrong thing to do but it works, cut the bolt off as near the head as possible and grind the bolt smooth at the head. Make the grind so smooth that you see the round outline of the bolt at the head. NOW FOR THE HARD PART, CENTERPUNCH A DIMPLE IN THE CENTER OF THE HOLE, IT MUST BE ALMOST DEAD CENTER.
? IT you already did this and broke off an easyout this is a difficult situation and makes it a lot harder. The easyout is hard and? cannot be drilled out. They do make a easyout remover with sliding fingers? that slides in beside the easyout in the hole and turns the easyout. If you buy one of these you are talking money. I have centerpunched the broken easyout with a small punch and shattered it since it is a hardened material. Use the biggest easyout possible so it won't break. Snap-on makes short stubby easy outs that don't break as easy.
? IF you haven't broke an easyout and haven't drilled the hole I would center punch as I stated above then drill the smallest hole possible in the center of the stud. Keep increasing the drill size till you can use the biggest easyout possible, Do not break the easyout don't force it. An easyout might not work if the stud is bottomed in the hole, so don't force it and break it off.
At this point I would find out what the size drill is required to tap your threads. and go all the way up to this size drill.thread? uses . A 3/8X16 Thread uses a 5/16 drill bit. I don't know the size of your bolt just using a 3/8 size to give you a example.?
? They do make left handed drill bits. If you do use these their is a good chance that as your getting closer to the threads the the stud will grab the drill bit and turn out.
? ?I WISH I COULD? TELL YOU HOW DEEP TO DRILL, but with the thermostat housing off? you should be able to feel? under the head to see it hole goes all the way through. If not take a thickness reading of the head and subtract 1/4 inch. Mark all your drill bits with a band of tape to make sure you don't go through.
? ?At this point you might be able to clean your threads out of the head with a needle pick, it not use a taper tap to start the threads and switch to a bottom tap to finish the threads. Use cutting oil and start the tap straight.
? Always wear goggles, your working with harden tools, they do break.
? Good luck, your feel good about the job knowing you did it yourself .
? If you do mess up the threads they do make Helli-coils, but that's a last ditch thing to do.
MIKE

Plymouth-guy · April 01, 2009, 02:29:23 PM

I THIRD the not using a screw extractor. I use hose only on soft metals, such as aluminum or monkey metal, NOT cast alloys. Yes, I have broke a few easy-outs and yes, it does really suck. I cant anything else other than the vise grip suggestion. Just make sure it is a very good one, possibly new one that is not rounded around on the edges of the teeth. You want clean, sharp edges on the teeth. I would let that Kroil sit for a week.

BTW-- the stuff I swear by is called Rust Buster, made by MA-Line. It is expensive, something like $12 for a 4 oz bottle, but it is THE greatest. I bought mine at a plumbing wholesaler/retailer in Mpls.

Carmen · April 01, 2009, 12:16:24 PM

If you look on page 95 of the "Plymouth Service Manual" you can see a good picture of what I mean. The bolt that I broke is the one on the left as you look at the picture. I broke it flush with the top of the thermostat housing, braking even, with the nut and thread. Still soaking the right bolt. Must admit I'm a little gun shy with taking out this one. But it will be heat and soak for me.

Carmen

mvair · April 01, 2009, 11:39:29 AM

I second not using an Easy Out on a stuck head bolt. If the Easy Out breaks off it is very difficult to remove or drill out. If the stud is sticking out of the block then the vice grip turning back and forth after oil soaking just might work. If the stud breaks flush with the head...stop and get professional help. Machine shops don't usually even mess with broken studs if the engine is out of the car. They drill them out and thread in an insert that takes the exact same size stud as the original. Once the block is on the bench, it is about a 10 minute job. This becomes a much more difficult proposition if there is a piece of hardened steel (Easy Out) in the stud. Obviously, you want to leave the engine in the car, so try the other suggestions first. I am just saying, removing the stud is not impossible. Screwing up your block using the wrong techniques is very possible.

John Hendricks · April 01, 2009, 10:25:19 AM

Haven't tried this but I keep it my "bag of potential tricks". Pack the bolt with some dry ice. It may contract the bolt enuff to allow it to back out. The opposite of heat.

Pandanom · March 31, 2009, 10:31:52 PM

That is good news! Not only do you know what Kroil is, you have some on hand. Keep both studs soaked with it. Once you get the housing off you should be able to use a good pair of vise grips to remove the stud since it sheared at the top. Once the vise grips are locked onto the remaining stud towards the bottom, start moving the vise grips lightly right and left as to loosen, then tighten, then loosen, then tighten so as to shock it into beginning to move. I call it "worrying it out". Just slap the vise grips with your hands alternately until you feel it give a little. Use a little heat and keep kroil on it. A good hair dryer or heat gun will suffice. Take your time.

Carmen · March 31, 2009, 10:02:00 PM

I let it sit for two days with Kroil. It seems to me that the stud is a double treaded bolt. The lower parts screws into the head and the rest of the bolt goes up through the housing which is then held on with a nut. I snap off the nut flush with the housing. I did not attemp to remove the other side. Was going to use some heat but changed my mind. I really screwed this one up big time.

Any of you guys make house calls?

one down cookie

Carmen

Pandanom · March 31, 2009, 06:07:50 PM

Quote from: Plymouths on March 31, 2009, 06:01:53 PM
How easy it will be will depend on how hard the remaining bolt piece is stuck in the head. It sounds like it's stuck pretty good or the the bolt wouldn't have sheared off when the nut bound up. The stud should have unscrewed from the head with the stuck nut on it.
Right now I would get some penetrating oil and start soaking the stud because it will need it and help when you try to extract it. If you have an oxy/acet. torch ,or access to one, it would be the ultimate extraction helper.
What you do with this kind of snapped off stud is you drill a hole in the center and turn an 'EASY OUT' down into the hole. The easy out has 'reversed' (left hand) threads to the broken bolt so it winds down the hole in the stud in the 'opposite' direction that 'normal' right hand threaded bolt does. The easy out has a square shank on it and you use a wrench to screw it into the broken stud. It will finally bind up in the hole and at that point it starts to act as a purchase on the broken stud piece. As you continue to try to turn the easy out,if you're lucky, the stud will suddenly 'crack' loose and start to run up out of it's threads in the head.
If not, then some heat is in order BUT just enough to get things hot not red hot. You will WARP the cast iron head.
? This is the only DIY system I know of . An Easy Out set ,it comes with several different sizes to remove different size studs,can be bought at any automotive store like NAPA or Carquest. Most of us have a set 'on the shelf' for just such an occaision.Good Luck.? ?

Sometimes easy outs break off and then it is a worse problem. Start simple first. If you are a novice, get a machinist to help you. A torch as described above is too much heat, you can use a cheap plumbers propane torch if needed. Take all precautions not to damage the head or have to remove it.

Pandanom · March 31, 2009, 06:02:07 PM

Remove the housing to see how much is left of the bolt, then start putting penetrating oil on it. Keep soaking it, overnight is best. Then write back with more details, For example: Did you ever have the housing off? Are they actually bolts or studs? Did it break while removing or installing, anything else you can think of. Picture?

FourDoor · March 31, 2009, 06:01:53 PM

How easy it will be will depend on how hard the remaining bolt piece is stuck in the head. It sounds like it's stuck pretty good or the the bolt wouldn't have sheared off when the nut bound up. The stud should have unscrewed from the head with the stuck nut on it.
Right now I would get some penetrating oil and start soaking the stud because it will need it and help when you try to extract it. If you have an oxy/acet. torch ,or access to one, it would be the ultimate extraction helper.
What you do with this kind of snapped off stud is you drill a hole in the center and turn an 'EASY OUT' down into the hole. The easy out has 'reversed' (left hand) threads to the broken bolt so it winds down the hole in the stud in the 'opposite' direction that 'normal' right hand threaded bolt does. The easy out has a square shank on it and you use a wrench to screw it into the broken stud. It will finally bind up in the hole and at that point it starts to act as a purchase on the broken stud piece. As you continue to try to turn the easy out,if you're lucky, the stud will suddenly 'crack' loose and start to run up out of it's threads in the head.
If not, then some heat is in order BUT just enough to get things hot not red hot. You will WARP the cast iron head.
? This is the only DIY system I know of . An Easy Out set ,it comes with several different sizes to remove different size studs,can be bought at any automotive store like NAPA or Carquest. Most of us have a set 'on the shelf' for just such an occaision.Good Luck.? ?

Carmen · March 31, 2009, 02:20:58 PM

Ok now I did it. I wanted to change the thermostat on my 41 P12 and I broke off the nut that holds the housing down. This is a running car and the engine is/was running fine. What made me do this was that I HAD to change all the radiator hoses. So I figure that while I am here I may as well replace everything.

SO. What do I do now? How do I get this bolt out?