'41 dash change

Jim Benjaminson · January 09, 2009, 12:33:30 AM

While looking for "something else" over the Christmas holidays, I discovered I have the schematics and installation instructions for the Philco Model 10 and Philco Model 11 radios (1934 era). I also have the installation instructions, etc. for the 1940 Chrysler products (one radio interchanged with all brands). If anyone needs copies, let me know......

Wayne · January 08, 2009, 12:38:03 AM

Radios became standard equipment on North American cars in the 1980's.? From then on if you wanted a car with no radio you had to order it that way - a true "radio-delete" car.? ?Prior to that no manufacturer built "radio-delete" cars.? You cannot delete something that was not installed!? Heaters were optional until 1964-65.

Yes BUT a lot of the options were factory installed options as opposed to dealer installed starting in the mid 60s. I remember waiting weeks and weeks because I wanted some of those options and watched some of cars be off loaded at the dealership with them installed.
Wayne Calif.

Chrycoman · January 07, 2009, 07:18:13 PM

Quote from: Bender on December 15, 2008, 07:35:24 AM

I remember my father buying a brand new 1960 Ford stationwagon off the dealer lot in Norfolk,Va,and us having to wait while they installed a radio in it. I don't know when radios began to be a factory installed non-optional item,but it was after 1960 with "common" Fords.? Thunderbirds probably came with a radio installed at the factory.

Yes,I know that Fords aren't Plymouths. I also know that if one manufacturer was installing radios in all their cars at the factory that the others would do the same.

Radios became standard equipment on North American cars in the 1980's.? From then on if you wanted a car with no radio you had to order it that way - a true "radio-delete" car.? ?Prior to that no manufacturer built "radio-delete" cars.? You cannot delete something that was not installed!? Heaters were optional until 1964-65.

Even the Imperial had the radio as optional in the 1970's.? The parts book lists a panel used on the instrument panel when the car was built without a radio.? About 72 Imperials were built in 1971 without radios.? Imagine Chrysler going to all the effort to design, tool and manufacturer a piece for 72 cars, plus some for repairs.? You would think for the price the Imperial went for, a hundred dollars or so more to include a radio would have been cheaper and easier than tooling a part used on less than one hundred cars.

If you are wondering what the dealer could install on a car, check the parts book.? ?The first section is "Accessories" and it lists all kinds of packages the dealer could sell you - radios, antennae, spotlights, bumper guards, seat covers, etc.? ?Some kits were for repairs but most were equipment the dealer could install on a car.? And the package came with all the stuff needed - nuts, bolts, screws, support bits, etc.? As well as instructions on how to install the equipment.?

Bill
Vancouver, BC

furylee · January 06, 2009, 08:50:48 AM

Here's a shot of my dash.

notdavidspade · January 05, 2009, 10:44:07 PM

does someone have a picture of a 41 radio grille? Mine is missing the plymouth crest, that mounts to it, and I'd like to know what I should be looking for. Thanks!

Bender · December 15, 2008, 07:35:24 AM

Quote from: Jim Benjaminson on November 22, 2008, 11:36:11 PM

.... And remember - NONE of these cars came from the factory with a radio, or heater or defrosters, etc.? They were all dealer installed, even if the car had been factory ordered with a radio, the dealer installed it.? This practice lasted thru the late 1950's.? .....

I remember my father buying a brand new 1960 Ford stationwagon off the dealer lot in Norfolk,Va,and us having to wait while they installed a radio in it. I don't know when radios began to be a factory installed non-optional item,but it was after 1960 with "common" Fords. Thunderbirds probably came with a radio installed at the factory.

Yes,I know that Fords aren't Plymouths. I also know that if one manufacturer was installing radios in all their cars at the factory that the others would do the same.

captbrian41 · November 29, 2008, 09:39:27 AM

You guys are all great, want to thank all for the answers. I'm going to install the grill and radio for the spring. I need to have Jay Campi in FL go over the radio for me but it will be a welcome addition to the car.
captbrian41

David Pollock · November 28, 2008, 11:15:14 PM

I believe it was customary to use the upscale dash panel when a radio was installed. This was certainly the case in 49-52. You may find that the Deluxe script is removeable. I have such an emblem from a 41 radio panel that says Roadking Special. (this was a canadian model P11 with some , but not all P12 trim.

mvair · November 26, 2008, 08:05:05 PM

I am posting this on behalf of Lindsay McConnell. Apparently he is having computer issues that will not let him upload. The following message was emailed to me along with the pictures.

Lindsay wrote:

I see there is quite a bit of confusion about radios/dash panels and what is "original" and what is not. I would like to respond to these questions.

I feel this information is important for folks that are trying to do things "right". This information is documented from original texts.

The photos that I have posted are pretty self explanatory. I am trying to show that the #800 does not have solid, chrome buttons, and that the #800 originally came with plastic, ivory colored knobs and tone knobs, not the chrome ones that were with the #802's.

Also I have attached a couple of pictures of the original, complete "Station tab call letter" package that was given to the new radio owners to "customize" their radio stations if they felt to do so. This kit was then returned to the dealer to hand to others to do the same with. As you may be able to see, there are HUNDREDS of radio stations listed. One photo even shows the original, clear plastic station letter covers still stapled to the call letter sheet!

I also, wanted to document that it was "proper" to install an #802 in a 41 dash. MoPar gave those fantastic instructions as to how to do this!!!

I now see that I have forgotten to photograph the original knobs for the #800 and the #802 radios...So, I will have to try later.

Jim Yergin · November 25, 2008, 09:23:34 AM

Captbrian41,
Sorry if I wasn't clearer. The 800 model is what I have in my '41 it is the 802 that would not fit.
Jim Yergin

mvair · November 24, 2008, 07:16:21 PM

Unless your center grill is different from mine, the special deluxe emblem and the cloisonn? ship can both be removed. You need to take out the radio speaker (if installed) then remove the piece of screen material from the back of the grill. You will then see the emblems are attached to the grill with speed nuts.

captbrian41 · November 24, 2008, 01:18:15 PM

Jim I have an 800 for my '41 that I want to install in that grill. I took out the dash panel and the new grill fits perfectly and the 800 fits the grill. I'm not sure if there is a place to hang the bracket that's on the back of the radio but I will take another look when I pull the dash apart again this winter. Answering some of the other comments, the special deluxe is not an emblem that can be taken off it seems to be part of the grill. I will try to post some pictures when I get back to the car. It also appears from all the comments that installing this will be OK in keeping the car original.
thanks captbrian41

Jim Yergin · November 24, 2008, 11:02:00 AM

Jim,
I don't think they are interchangeable. An 802 radio would not fit in my 1941 P12 dash. Also my 1941 800 radio has chrome knobs and buttons.
Jim Yergin

Jim Benjaminson · November 22, 2008, 11:36:11 PM

The radio grill looks like a P15 piece to me. However - the radios from 1940 thru 1949 (lst series) interchange. Only difference is the P15 radio had chrome knobs and push buttons. And remember - NONE of these cars came from the factory with a radio, or heater or defrosters, etc. They were all dealer installed, even if the car had been factory ordered with a radio, the dealer installed it. This practice lasted thru the late 1950's. I remember my Dad installing radios and heaters in 56-57 Chevie's, etc. at the Chev agency he worked at. In the early 60's, when they took on Pontaic as well, I got to do final install on the remote control rear view mirrors - I was the only one with an arm skinny enough to reach up into the fender to bolt the thing in place.....

Wm Steed · November 19, 2008, 01:36:10 PM

I think it should not be to hard for readers of this topic to figure out that I find the subject of "accessories for old cars" to be very interesting.
In my collection old car brochures, advertisments, etc, I have brochures, and/or bulletins that show the procedures that must be followed to install '38 model radios in '39 cars and '41 radios in '42 cars. Ford also practiced the same thing, I have paper work, etc, showing '34 radios in '35 cars and '36 radios in '37 cars.

It would appear that the factory required the dealers to purchase the accessories in certain numbers, therefore when there was a model change the dealers were stuck with accessories for the earlier model vehicles. To minimize the problem the manufactures came up with "retro" kits so the dealers could clear out their old stock.

Now that so many people have gotten picky about correctness, I guess that if a person has an early accessory on a vehicle, then the vehicle VIN should be an early one, like in the first three to four months of production....Bill

Lindsay McConnell · November 19, 2008, 09:05:46 AM

My two cents worth...
Anything "Special Deluxe" was directly refering to the P-12.

If I was installing the radio in a P-11, with that dash panel, I would remove the two pins holding the "Special Deluxe" emblem, and simply replace that emblem with the two pin "Plymouth" emblem. Leaving the panel blank, with no I.D. plate in my mind simply looks too bare.
Hum, come to think of it, I may have an emblem that actually says "Plymouth Deluxe" that would be for that radio grill. Would have to do some searching once the weater decides to get above 20 degrees!!!
If interested let me know.

Wm Steed · November 18, 2008, 01:06:43 PM

I think the thing that most people that are 'restoring' a car do not realize, is that the vast majority of cars sold in the 1930's/40's were ordered by the dealers with no accessories. Why...? Accessories added weight to the vehicles, weight added freight charges. $$$$ During WWII and for several years thereafter the price of vehicles was frozen at 1941 levels, however, accessories did not fall under the price controls.

During the late 1940's I worked at a Ford dealership in the new car prep area. Our main job was installing accessories, radios, heaters, delux steering wheels, fancy hood ornaments, bumper guards, etc. I know of a Ford a friend of mine owned. He thought it would be neat to have the build sheet on his car. The trail he followed on his car was pretty neat. It turned out the car had been built as a plain Jane delux, no radio, heat, ect. The car was raffled off by a dealer in Texas. Following the raffle the car then tuned up at a Ford dealer in New Mexico, then the car turned up at a Ford dealer in Seattle where it was sold. Somewhere between the Texas dealer and the Seattle dealer the car acquired a full compliment of accessories which had been added to the bottom of the final sales invoice.

I believe that the general policy that prevails in the old car world about accessories is that if the accessories are as sold by the original dealers, then the accessories are considered to be the same as if they were factory installed. Until such a time that we get so picky about the correctness of a restoration, that in order to show your car you must have a copy of the original build, I think the subject is quite mute....Bill?

mvair · November 18, 2008, 12:42:18 PM

Lindsay McConnell can correct me if I am wrong. The '41 dash is as shown in the picture. The "Special Deluxe" emblem is attached through the radio grill with two clips. The grill looks the same with or without the emblem. I would guess the emblem was used on the P12 and not on the P11. The grill was the same on both.

*****************
I know nothing about actual judging. I believe however that a car is considered original if it is the same as produced by the factory, or delivered by the dealer with MoPar accessories. Since the radio was also available for dealer installation, I think it would still be considered original even if it was not installed in the factory.

Bob · November 18, 2008, 10:42:45 AM

My two cents worth would say yes, if it was available for that year car

captbrian41 · November 18, 2008, 09:40:57 AM

Hi all, would still like an answer to the dash question. Can a car still be considered original if you put equipment such as a radio and a grill that might not have come with the car out of the factory but was none the less availabe in that model year. I understnd an overdrive in a '41 is not acceptable since it wasn't available till the '50's but does equipment that came out of another car and then put into an original car of the same year damage originality.
thanks, captbrian41

captbrian41 · November 10, 2008, 10:00:38 AM

thanks for the pic. The picture of the '41 dash is the same as mine and that's the dash grill I have. Not the '47. Still wonder about authenticity with something that has special deluxe on it, in a car designated deluxe. captbrian'41

BobT-47P15 · November 10, 2008, 04:13:29 AM

Here's a picture of a 41 Plym dash from an ebay ad......

If the grille you got looks like this, it's 46-48 Plymouth.

notdavidspade · November 08, 2008, 11:02:08 PM

Seems pretty simple to me. You can install factory original parts from a different model, or keep your aftermarket pieces. I would say the factory parts are more authentic, and therefore more original than aftermarket. However, original is a funny word. Since your car didn't come from the factory with a radio, to keep the car original, you would have to remove any radio. But since you obviously want a radio the choice is yours. I would go with a totally crazy route and use whatever radio works the best and you like the look of. By the way, I believe you can remove the "special deluxe" script.

captbrian41 · November 04, 2008, 01:18:35 PM

I have a '41 P11 TPC Deluxe with an underdash Crosley Roamio aftermarket radio installed. I recently purchased a mopar #800 radio and a speaker grille to put in the car and after replacing my dash plate with the radio grille I wasn't sure it was correct because it has the designation Special Deluxe on the grille. I want to keep the car original and was wondering if I can use this grille and radio or stay with the dash plate and underdash radio instead.
thanks, captbrian41