Dodge motors in FORD built cars!

[Carla]

There are a lot of stories about Henry Ford and the Ford Company, to be sure.......

I got to hear a teeny-tiny bit of 'the inside story', years and years ago, from one of my father's friends, who worked as a very junior design engineer at Ford in the late '30's.

Earl worked in one of many small design facilities, which were scattered through Ford's 'empire'. Ford had, at that time, a great many ideas under development, primarily improvements for the V8 car production, but also some interesting basic research, such as plastics made from soy beans. (the soy beans, of course, would come from 'Ford Farms', one of Ford's other interests.

According to the stories I heard, Ford's employees, at pretty much any level, were subjected to 'Ford stomach', a process of 'leadership by intimidation' in which fear of demotion, or of losing one's job entirely, was a daily normalcy. Allegedly, Edsel Ford literally died of 'Ford stomach', his health weakened by continuing ridicule and intimidation by his father.

Again allegedly, Edsel was a pretty decent sort of man, a competent automotive businessman in his own right, who did what he could to improve morale amongst the management and engineering people, but was often under-mined by Ford senior, who was obsessed with maintaining absolute control over his company in every possible detail.

One day, Mr Ford, with his entourage of high-ranking Ford executives, personally inspected the facility where Earl worked. Earl, a very young and very junior engineer, was warned by his department head, something to the effect of 'Mr Ford may look at the work you are doing and ask questions'.

'Try your best to say nothing other than 'Yes, Mr Ford', or No, Mr Ford, but look him squarely in the eye and, whatever you do, if you don't know an exact answer, don't try to BS him even the least bit. He may ask your opinion of the project you are working on, and, if he does, tell him exactly what you think, even if you think the project is no good in your opinion'.

'He has the power to read people like a book and will know instantly whether you are trying to kiss up to him, or BS him, and whether you know what you are talking about.

If he doesn't like what you say, for any reason, he'll turn and say something quietly to one of the managers, and you're out of a job, just like that.  If he takes a liking to you, for any reason, he'll turn and say 'we need men like this', and you'll keep your job, and have a chance at promotion.

Allegedly, Ford and his entourage would inspect the various experimental projects, and, after sharply questioning the people there, might turn to one of his executives and say 'we don't need these men any more' meaning that they were all summarily fired, or, conversely, 'promote this man, and see that he gets all the men and equipment he needs to get this job into production right away'.

Well, according to Earl's stories, he never got to actually speak to Mr Ford, just watched from a distance as Ford talked to his department head, so he never got to find out, first-hand, whether he'd have been fired or promoted.

cheers

Carla

[Jim Benjaminson]

Bill - you are absolutely correct.  Ford didn't do a lot of the things he got "credit" for.  But he was shrewd and in all probablity, just a little crazy but crazy like a fox.  When he ordered parts for the Model T, he specified that size of the box (they were wood) so the boxes could be cut down and the wood used in the production of the car.  Know why you could have "any color, so long as its black"?  Cars were painted with varnish in those days and it took days for it to dry - plus it took a lot more coats.  By painting the "T" Japan black, he could get by with 3 coats, with a drying time of hours rather than days....but he was hard on his help - a lot of them left and took positions with other companies.  A fascinating personality....

[Chrycoman]

History and the automotive industry in particular is full of very smart people that started out well, only to fall by the wayside. William Carpo Durant and David Buick are perfect examples. What set Ford apart from the rest of the 'also ran's ' was his ability to keep focused. Very little, if any has ever been written about Henry Ford being a womanizer or having a drinking problem. Ford's big vice was that he liked to work, and he liked to control as much of his destiny as he could. I have read that had Durant paid attention to business, his wealth and empire would have far exceeded Ford's, instead he died flat broke as a pin setter in a boweling alley.

The Dodge Brothers are another example of talent gone astray... It is true that they were successful financially beyond most peoples wildest dreams, yet they made one big mistake, they raised their children to be play boys and socialites.... so when the Dodge brother's died within six months of each other, the Company went into a tail spin which resulted in the bankers taking over and subsequently selling it to Walter P. for 'pennies' compared to the value the Company had three years earlier, when the brothers died.

There is an old saying that seems to hold true year after year..... The pattern of family wealth....
The first generation makes it, the second generation enjoys it.... and the third looses it.
....Bill?

Henry Ford was a teatotaller - ie. never drank alcohol.? ?He even demanded the same from his employees and many were not promoted due to drinking alcohol.? ?Henry had a "spy" network that kept close tabs on his employees - or at least the ones that worked in Detroit.

By the way, it is William Crapo Durant.? "Crapo" was his mother's maiden name and her father was a wealthy Michigan banker and politician.

The Dodge Brothers had one vice that Henry had a hard time toterating - they loved their drink.? The two thought nothing of going to a bar and getting into a brawl.? Should be pointed out, this was before prohibition.? ?You can see where their children got some of their attitudes.? The rest was due to their widows who constantly doled out money to their children thus giving them no incentive to work.

Dodge Brothers, Inc. began to falter after the widows sold the company to Dillon, Read & Company on 1st April 1925 for $146 million.? When the brothers died the widows asked the head man under the brothers, Frederick J. Haynes, to run the firm.? Neither the widows not their children had any active part in the company.? Haynes stayed with the firm until Walter Chrysler took over in 1928.? ?From their he went to Durant Motors, Inc.? Haynes left Durant Motors in 1931 and seems to have disappeared from view after that.? Contrary to what the "Hemmings" people say, F.J.Haynes had no part in the Haynes or Haynes-Apperson companies.? F.J.Haynes worked for Franklin before going to DB in 1912 and before going to Franklin in 1902 worked for National Cycle and Automobile Company in Hamilton, Ontario.? ?The general manager of NC and A at that time, by the way, was one John Dodge.? The "Haynes" in Haynes-Apperson was Elwood P. Haynes.

In 1924, the company built 222,236 vehicles for a net profit of $16,897,185 and net worth over $80 million.? Production hit 255,332 for 1925 and profits slumped to $9,841,969 (DB was beginning work on a new 6) with net worth at $92,055,691.? ?The widows thus made a nice tidy profit on their investment as did the bankers.  DR&Co. turned around and sold $159.2 million in bonds, preferred stock and non-voting common stock.  Within six months of the purchase, the banks had made $13.2 million on the whole transaction and still controlled the company.

By 1928 Dodge Brothers was losing market size, although sales did not drop until 1927 as DB hung onto the four cylinder engine too long.? ?All its competitors had adopted the six.? ?Chrysler Corporation acquired Dodge Brothers, Inc. on 1st August 1928, for $170 million in Chrysler stock, hardly pennies compared to the $146 million sale price in 1925.? ?On paper, then, the bank made $24 million.? As the sale increased the size and profitability of Chrysler, the value of Chrysler stock rose and the bank undoubtedly realized a good return when they sold off their Chrysler stock.? Stock sales and prices would be soaring over the next months in the sellers' markret prior to the crash in the fall of 1929.?

Should also be pointed out that Henry Ford never worked for Olds and never lived in Lansing.? Also, there was more than one curveddash Olds built.? Although is was the only model to survive the March, 1901, Olds factory fire in DETROIT (where Olds Motor Works was founded in 1899), it was put into mass production when the firm subsequently moved to Lansing.?

Henry Ford worked for the Edison Illuminating Company in Detroit (was made chief engineer in 1893) and built his first car in 1896.?

He went on to build a second car and needed money.? Lumber dealer William H. Murphy organized the Dertroit Automobile Company in 1899 with Henry as Superintendent.? As with all three companies he was associated, Henry Ford invested none of his money - only his expertise.? ?Although Henry could design and build a car, he had no experience at organizing and running a factory.? After a year, no vehicles had been built and it was decided to close the doors.? ?No bankers were involved in this firm, but you can hardly blame Murphy for pulling out.

The second auto company Ford was involved with was the Henry Ford Company, and again Murphy invested in the firm.? At this stage Henry Ford got involved in racing cars and thus spent his time designing, building and racing his creations.? Again, the company built no cars, although a viable design was in the works, and thus had no income.? ?The company did not close its doors, instead Henry Ford left.? ?After Henry left, Murphy brought in Henry M. Leland, a manufacturer of machine tools and engines.? With Henry Ford's car design and Henry Leland's powertrain, the new Cadillac was born.? Now you know why the 1902 Cadillac Model A and the 1903 Ford Model A look so much alike.

When Henry Ford got involved in his third automotive attempt, he got the support of coal dealer Alexander Y. Malcolmson.? Again, Ford put up no cash, and the new Ford Motor Company was formed on 16 June 1903.? To eliminate the production problem, Henry Ford contracted various manufacturers to build parts and assemblies.? Thus the Dodge Brothers were contracted to build complete chassis (frame, engine, transmission, and axles) in return for a share in the company as they had to put up the capital to tool the needed parts.? Another company was contracted to build bodies.? All Ford Motor Company did was take completed Dodge Brothers chassis, install the wheels and place the competed body onto it.?

The first car was the Ford Model A, basically his design at the Henry Ford Company with a Dodge Brothers powertrain.  The Model T did not get into production until October, 1908.   When the Model T was dropped in 1927, Henry Ford decided to call its successor the Model A. 

No banks were involved in any of Henry Ford's companies.? Ford came from a mid-west farming community and as with the majority of farmers at that time, had an aversion to banks and anyone involved with them.  Even in the post-World War I recession, instead of going to the banks for lines of credit, he shipped cars to his dealers, ordered or not, basically on a COD basis.  Thus his dealers were forced to borrow from the banks to pay off the Ford Motor Company.   The dealers paid the interest on the loans while Henry Ford got his money, no strings attached.

The Lacey book makes for nice reading, but mention the book to any Ford lover or historian and watch the look of disgust sweep over their faces.? The author stretched and distorted many a truth as well as fabricating a lot of 'history'.? ?Revisionist history gone amuck.? ? ?

Bill
Vancouver, BC

[Wm Steed]

History and the automotive industry in particular is full of very smart people that started out well, only to fall by the wayside. William Carpo Durant and David Buick are perfect examples. What set Ford apart from the rest of the 'also ran's ' was his ability to keep focused. Very little, if any has ever been written about Henry Ford being a womanizer or having a drinking problem. Ford's big vice was that he liked to work, and he liked to control as much of his destiny as he could. I have read that had Durant paid attention to business, his wealth and empire would have far exceeded Ford's, instead he died flat broke as a pin setter in a boweling alley.

The Dodge Brothers are another example of talent gone astray... It is true that they were successful financially beyond most peoples wildest dreams, yet they made one big mistake, they raised their children to be play boys and socialites.... so when the Dodge brother's died within six months of each other, the Company went into a tail spin which resulted in the bankers taking over and subsequently selling it to Walter P. for 'pennies' compared to the value the Company had three years earlier, when the brothers died.

There is an old saying that seems to hold true year after year..... The pattern of family wealth....
The first generation makes it, the second generation enjoys it.... and the third looses it.
....Bill 

[FourDoor]

In Robert Lacy's book on Ford there is a small story of Henry Ford looking through the trash bin at the Olds Works in Lansing where he was employed on the line making curved dash Oldmobiles. Apparently Ransom Olds saw him and asked " What is that man doing?" Told it was a worker by the name of Ford and he was trying to find some wire wheels in the garbage that he could use, Olds says "Give him what he wants and stop him from hunting through the garbage!".?
? Many people, and all of the media, do not know that the Henry Ford we know did not appear on the 'scene' until he was 40 years old! He had several jobs prior to that and one of them was working on the line at Olds. I've often wondered if the wire wheels on that first 'quadracycle' actually came from the curved dash Olds car. And as Jim says ,Ford saw the Olds production line up close and personal long before he ever started his own production line. But the media is so full of myths about Ford it will probably never get straightened out.?

[Jim Benjaminson]

Actually the Ford - Dodge relationship goes back further than the Model T.  The T was introduced in October of 1908.  The first Ford's were the Model A in 1903 and virtually all the mechanical parts were made by Dodge - Ford simply put the pieces together and bolted on the bodies.  Ford eventually bought out all his stockholders/suppliers to have 100% control of the company.  The Dodge - Ford lawsuit brought John & Horace a lot of money.  And yes, Oldsmobile (the curved dash) used a Dodge built transmission and I'm not too sure but think a good part, if not all, of the motor was built by Dodge.  Once you dig into the early history of the auto industry, you soon find out that all the major players were involved with each other at one time or another.  Ransom Olds gave a lot of the pioneers their start in the industry.....Ford wasn't the first with the assembly line, that idea came from Olds.  Ford got a lot of credit (deserved or otherwise) for achievements made by other people and companies.....

[FourDoor]

The Ford Model T did not have a steering box down at the side of the frame where we would expect to find it. Instead it had a small gear box just underneath the steering wheel where the ratio change took place. The housing is usually nickel plated. If you get your head down under the steering wheel and look back up at the 'gear box' you'll see 'DODGE BROTHERS DETROIT' imprinted on it. I believe all T steering was geared down with Dodge gears.?Any I've seen have the Dodge lettering on them. ?

[Wm Steed]

Actually the Dodge relationship with Ford goes deeper than the use of Dodge engines in the early Model 'T's..
After Henry's bankruptcy with his first two ventures at building cars, actually the failures were not his fault, it was the fault of the bankers he aligned himself with. When Henry started his third venture, Ford Motor Company he soon found that high end expensive automobiles  and race cars like everyone else was building was not a very profitable venture. Ford figured out that mass produced cars built exactly alike would be more profitable.

About this time Ford coined the phrase... "to go bankrupt gives a person the chance to start over, only more intelligently". With the help of a local Detroit business man Ford started on the Model T, however he was under funded and did not want to go to the bankers again so he approached the Dodge Brothers. At the time the Dodge Brothers were only manufactures of automotive parts, the largest in the United States. Ford entered into a contract, actually for stock in his new Ford Motor Company, with DB to build the first 17,000 Model T's.  Dodge continued to be the major supplier of Model T engines, transmissions, axles, etc., through 1913 when they had a big falling out with Ford because Ford did not want his suppliers to make any money off him. John Dodge made the comment "that he was tired of being carried around in Henry Ford's vest pocket". Dodge started work on their own car in 1913, introducing their first car in November 1914.

I have a friend in Idaho that recently completed a 99 point restoration of a 1913 T touring. The car was an unmolested vehicle that my friend had put away forty years earlier until he had the time to restore it. Mike is the worst kind of a perfectionist, perfect is not good enough for him. When he took the car apart he was dismayed to find axles, axle housing, etc.,  with DB stamped into them, a little research on his part revealed that the DB parts were correct for his car...

So there you have it, another example of the two terms one should avoid using when talking cars...... Never and always...Bill 

[darren]

 :)  This time of the year its nice to read as much as you can.... I found a article that stated in 1904 Fords 1st factory Assembly plant... Dodge was their motor of choice ( how about that) ... It also stated Dodge motors where in Olds also in that time period... So next time you go to a car show and a Ford guy  Evan thinks of saying anything bad about a mopar product .... well you have the answer Happy PLY-mouthing DANiel