dropping the pan for sludge clean out

[Go Fleiter]

This are the sheet metal seals (lower parts). I think that I did cover the hole by cutting a metal part of one seal and using the provided holes and skrew it tight. So - apparently - I did not use the sheet metal seal variety to seal the reear bearing cap...

[Go Fleiter]

My 1951 P 23 has just this hole in the main rear cap, 6 years ago I closed it with a sheet matal plus gasket custom made. Don?t remember anymore how I fixed this all together. Is still working fine .
Greetings! Go

[David Pollock]

rear seal #s from Victor  JV 134-6 for the bolt- on seal    JV 134-9 for the slip in type which can be used with any engine provided the rear main cap does not have any open holes in the seal area.  (only  ran into this problem once )

When there is wear or water damage on the shaft, (usually caused by an engine sitting around for years in damp conditions) substituting one seal for the other will allow the new seal to run on a clean surface.

[50Plymouth]

My vote is that is was a combination of all three of those things perhaps... I felt more comfortable about the stuck sludge in the pan, and the understandable caked non-detergent oil buildup in the case than I did about the "grey oil" on the crank because that stuff is going through the system.

BTW, my oil pickup screen had zero junk stuck or clogging it  :o I was pleasantly surprised there.

Ryan

[12905]

A thin build up of grey sludge in the pan was considered to be normal in engines built and run before the late sixties. The increasing use of detergent oils from about that time changed the appearance of any build up in the crankcase - usually very minor unless the engine was badly abused.

[Captain Cranbrook]

FWIW:  An experienced mechanic told me years ago that the gray sludge in the crankcase was actually lead deposits from the leaded gasoline used back then.

[elmo]

50 ply... Without seeing what was in your oil pan i can not comment to much, but it sounds to me by your description, that some time in the past your car has had a blown head gasket. If it was through stirred up metal particles it would have a distinct mettallic look. Now you have cleaned it out you should have no problems. If it was my car i would run some running in oil through it for a while ,then drain it and replace it with a good quality oil

[50Plymouth]

Mission accomplished. Went through 2 cans of carb. cleaner and good old elbow grease w/ soap and water. That should help at least, that was nasty stuff in there. I noticed a grey oily coating on the crank and parts. I wondered if it was mostly from recent from my brief attempts thus far at ressurecting the engine, or if its just stirred up metal particles from my putting 15-40 oil w/ heavy cleaning agents.

Is it common to find 'grey oil' in old engines like this as a result from non-detergent oils, or is it usually a sign of a current impending self-destructing engine.

[blueskies]

Pete-

Thanks for the reply. My engine stamp says P 1311313-13 edit: opps that was head. Engine is p20 code .. sooo I'm taking that to mean its not '53+ with the neoprene seal but rather the older 'face mount' type  ::).  How did you convert your face mount rear seal to the modern rubber seal? Maybe you just swapped to modern caps? The manual nicely shows the seals along with your great photo's.

If getting to face mount with eng. assembled is unrealistic guess I'll just have to leave for the time being  :( at least it would be less sludgy.

Oh, any specific chemicals help remove pan sludge or do you just scrape & wipe it all out? (forgive the unseasoned newbie)

Ryan

Ryan-

My engine block and bearing cap are original to my 1950 sedan.  I think my engine is a late production version though, because it has the skinny fan belt and pulleys.  I don't know when the seals were changed over to the insert neoprene type, but my block was machined to accept it.  I just tossed the old face mount type, and installed the insert type.  I did not know before I tore my engine down if I would be able to use the insert type seal, so I ordered both just in case.  You will have to pull the rear main bearing cap to find out if your block has the groove or not.  Be sure to torque the cap bolts to spec when you put it back on...

As for cleaning out the pan, I would wipe out the majority of it with rags, and then use BrakeKleen solvent to clean the pan.  The solvent will disolve any leftover crud and leave the pan completely oil free.  You can use it on the outside too, to get rid of the oil for painting the outside of the pan.

Pete

[John Hendricks]

Scrape the crud out as best u can, then put in a goodly amt of soap and fill the pan with water and let it soak for a few days.  If u want to paint the pan, this would be a good time to do it.  Just don't paint the inside-u don't want paint flakes in the bearings

[50Plymouth]

Pete-

Thanks for the reply. My engine stamp says P 1311313-13 edit: opps that was head. Engine is p20 code .. sooo I'm taking that to mean its not '53+ with the neoprene seal but rather the older 'face mount' type  ::).  How did you convert your face mount rear seal to the modern rubber seal? Maybe you just swapped to modern caps? The manual nicely shows the seals along with your great photo's.

If getting to face mount with eng. assembled is unrealistic guess I'll just have to leave for the time being  :( at least it would be less sludgy.

Oh, any specific chemicals help remove pan sludge or do you just scrape & wipe it all out? (forgive the unseasoned newbie)

Ryan

[blueskies]

Ryan-

I just bought a pan gasket set from Vintage Power Wagons.  Comes with four pieces of cork, two long ones that run down each side and around the coners to the front and rear bearing caps, and two short pieces that run around the bearing caps at each end of the pan.  These short pieces seem like they are too long, but they are not!  They are designed to compress as the pan tightens up, to form a tight seal.

You might want to inspect and possibly change your rear main seal while you are in there...  If your block and rear main bearing cap have the groove for the neoprene rubber type seal, it can easily be changed from the bottom.  You have to remove the rear main bearing cap to replace the seal of this type, and re-torque the cap to spec's when you put it back on.  The face mount type seals are more difficult to change with the tranny and flywheel in place, as the top half is very hard to get to with a wrench.

Here's a couple of pics of the rubber type seal:

If you look closely, you can see the end of the upper half of the rubber seal between the thrust flange on the crank, and the outside face of the block.  The upper half of the seal can be slipped in the groove around the crank, without removing the crank.


This is the bearing cap, with the bottom half of the seal in place.  You can also see the three bolt holes for the face mount type of seal.  My engine originally had the face mount type.  There are also two little "h" shaped pieces of rubber that mount between the bearing cap and block, at each side of the cap.  These should come with the rear main seal, and should be replaced at the same time.


The pan on your P20 can be easily removed without interferance with the steering linkages.  I pulled mine a few days ago to replace the gasket and inspect my rod and main bearings.

I don't have a part number, but the fellas at VPW will know what you need.  Be sure to let them know you have a civilian motor, as they speciallize in Power Wagons and sometimes the parts are slightly different for the military units.

Pete

[50Plymouth]

Still moving forward on my p20. Changed the filter and found nasty sludge in the bottom. Stuck finger in the oil pan and noticed thick yucky sludge.  :-X Engines got 46k and runs 40psi at idle I'm now using 15w-40. This car needs everything - should I tackle the sludge early? This isn't a full & fancy restoration but a "keep 'er going".

I've found part numbers for oil pan if I drop and cleanout but what about seals. Is there a rear and front I should do at the same time I've yet to find part number for those as they don't come w/ pan gasket.

Anybody got records on seal #'s?

Ryan