Ok, I am going to get myself in trouble with this poll - but...

[Plymouthcranbrook]

I like stock old cars.? I admire the technical skill to make Hot Rods, but have little other interest in them. What I really like is a car restored to how someone might have driven it in the past. That is, Period speed equiptment, or aftermarker parts not necessarily exact copies of or new old stock Mopar parts.? I do care about how the cars looked new from the factory, but don't think that that should get in the way of enjoying a drive in a old Plymouth.? I don't expect ever to enter my car in a show for a trophy run.? Maybe to just see what is right or wrong but I really want to have a good driver. And that's all.?

[Roadkingcoupe]

Looking at the poll results 92% will accept some kind of modifications. It seems like the internet forum members are of a different mindset then the POC executive, Thanks for the POLL!

[Wm Steed]

Mark, I understand, I just found it to be very humorus. I almost got carried away with alternat ways to decribe a radiator/engine "petcock"  or how to correctly insert a screw, etc.etc......... Computers are wonderful, one just has to keep in mind that they can't think for themselves.....Bill

[POC-Admin]

Ok, I fixed that word.  There are still some words that will change when you try to use them.  This is a Family Oriented club - some words are not appropriate.

It also takes the "bite" out of rants and flames when you try to call someone a poophead - see what I mean!  It just looses all the rage.  Of course the guy posting might just get so mad at not being able to cuss he just leaves.

[Wm Steed]

Earlier today while I was creating my posting to this topic I incountered  "the big brother watch dog" of the POC Forum.

While trying to describe how well my son liked my 39 Plym, I tried to describe the the seating area, I used a very common term used to describe the pilots area of an airplane..... c--kpit, big brother kept telling me I was using bad words.

I wonder........... do we have to upgrade our vocabulary so we are more politicly correct?  Let see now...... my son really liked the feel and arrangement of the  command module.....or.....the (omit referance to male cow) " guidance devise" fits the hands very well, especially with the tilt feature, the operaters seating area is comfortable with all of the controls conviently placed.....


I guess we will have to rewrite history to........ Rear gunner to command module,, bad guys coming in at 8:00...... command modele to all gunners,  make sure your weapons are in the firing mode by c--king...... no no....  activate your weapons by pulling the bolt rearward so as to engage  the fireing device.....

Ok I'll stop now, I just could not resist....Bill     ;D   

[Wm Steed]

Hmmmmmmm...... I guess I am somewhat of a paradox in the old car world.  I love old cars and for the most part I like them in their basic stock form.  I don't care for radically altered bodies, billet wheels and the "in the weeds" look, however, I LIKE CARS THAT RUN WELL AND ARE SAFE.

I joined the POC shorthly afterr I found my 39 Plym (1997) because I knew I needed a lot of help to locate information/parts about the car. I never mislead anyone about what I was doing to or with the car, and in fact was told by several people I came in contact with that they wished they had modified their cars to more modern power train and/or brakes in lieu of stock.  in fact, several of these people have since sold their1930 model "parade" cars in favor of a more modern car which they can safely drive at hiway speeds.

Other than the few negative comments I have received here on the POC Forum, the majority of responses to my car/info postings have been very positive. Yes...... Jim Benjaminson chided me for making a posting to the Forum about the wood graining of the dash/moldings in my car "No Wood Graining In Plym Conv's"...... then he went on to add that "it was my car so I could do anything I wanted to it". 

I think the fact of the matter is that many people do not really grasp just how much the interest in old cars  is changing. The internet with all of the forums is quickly becoming  the voice of the indusrty, you can make a posting to a forum regarding  part (s) and/or info you are looking for and within 24 hours or less get imput from around the world. Ebay is quickly becoming the "international swap meet of the world" for old parts. Our last two trips to the Pomana swap meet has been very disappointing because so many vendors are now selling their stuff on eBay from the comfort of their den in lieu of loading up an driving several hundred miles to a swap meet.

I for one can atest to the fact that my car would not be restored to the level it is had I not been able to gather parts/accessories from eBay. Yes in some cases I had to compete with unseen people from around the world, but tell me, when was the last time you saw a complete set of NOS head light assy or a complete pair of tail light assy, still in the factory boxes?. Yes I paid dearly for these parts, however, I did not have to travel accross the US to get them.

I think my oldest son is typical of most young people, (Baby Boomers) he is 47 and never had any interest in my old cars. He gets all worked up about  Intregra's, BMW Boxter's, Jag's and some MB convertables, yet....... I was really surprised when he saw my Plym for the first time in early September. Ed walked around it many times, he sat in it, closed the door and got hold of the steering wheel, I asked him if he wanted to take it for a drive, he responded..... no!...... just the feel of the leather  bucket seats and the general comfort of the driver's area, control and gauge placement, was enough for him, upon exiting the car, Ed looked at me and said....... Dad... you have out done yourself this time!

That comment by my son was better than any award or recognition I might ever get from a car club....Bill

[Roadkingcoupe]

This is an important issue that needs to be discussed. I appreciate the openess of the Webmaster to even broach the subject. This really is a topic that could/should reflect the general membership instead of a rather "paternalistic" preaching from the top of the mountain style.
? ?I would really like to preface this post with a little of my own personal history with the POC and its members. In 1982 a 1939 Business Coupe drove by and I chased down the owner and spoke to him about his car. What is it? What year? etc. he was polite and we discussed it and that was that. But I could not get the car out of my head. Every time I saw the car I would talk to the owner and eventually asked if it was for sale, he said no. As time went by I got him to promise me that if the car was for sale he would sell it to me, he agreed. Three or four years passed and the phone call came.......its tax time and he needed to sell and it had been sitting under an thick coating of dust (not running for quite some time). Needless to say I had it running in a couple of hours and the rest is history. Two or three years later the POC had a National event not 15 miles from my house BUT I did not know of the club and I missed the event. By the time I found the POC I promised myself that I would attend one of these events and so I did in 1998 at Plymouth MI for the 70th anniversary.
? ?Well I thought I was headed to Mecca (at least for Plymouth owners), it seemed like I would arrive to open arms and welcomed by all. But then I woke up, I had brought a car that I loved and had pride in but was not complete and was totally stock but not totally authentic. I could not believe it my journey to Plymouth MI had not turned out to be as welcoming as I thought and I was devastated...
? ? There were many car owners and there were many trailer queens but I didnt care because I still loved my car and NO ONE would take that away from me. Over the years I continued to improve my car basically restoring the whole car (shy of a a frame off) and I now have the car that I AWAYS WANTED! Not what the Plymouth club decreed or ordained as what constitutes a Plymouth.
? ? I have great friends, and I had brought one of them with me to the convention. He knows very little about cars and even less about old Plymouths. At the Banquet he turned to me and he said the most profound thing...."What a shame that many of these people will not be around in the years to come" and then he asked "what wiill happen to the cars?" Well his words never left me and I agree with him!
? ? There really is a demographic flaw in the POC. If the bulk of the leadership are senior in their years and unwilling to be open and inviting to a younger generation of Plymouth owners who will keep the club going? The same people that have been alienated? What is wrong with this picture?
I am 47 and own 5 Old Plymouths all between 1938-1941 and they are all STOCK but not totally authentic. Why would I feel alienated? Because of the ridiculous disclaimer every time I would log on to read and converse with other Plymouth Owners.
? ?In the last two years iIhave STOPPED paying dues to a club that specifically excludes passionate owners like myself. In my early years I did not know what I had done wrong and now that I am older and a little wiser I am smart enough to know what I like and NOT what is dictated to me. Thats my own personal lesson. BUT I would like to see changes at that POC that would be more INCLUSIVE and would actually promote a future for the next generation of people that will keep these magnificent cars on the road.
? ?I was stupid enough to assume that the POC would welcome me with open arems, BUT, I am smart enough to know what I like without anyone dictating their rhetoric to me. Thanks for reading this rant but please understand that this issue has simmered with me since 1998! Can the POC really expect to alienate owners of OLD Plymouths and still stay strong? Thanks to the P15 D24 site for their openess when the POC shut there door on my foot.

Jeff Cooper
1938 Dodge Coupe stock
1939 Plymouth Coupe stock
1940 Plymouth Coupe HR
1941 Canadian D20 Coupe (same as 1941 Plymouth rebadged as a Dodge) 40000 orig miles Stock
1941 Plymouth P11 sedan (soon to become a coupe) stock

[49plymouthclubcoupe]

I'm a fairly recent member of POC.? ?Maybe for the last couple years more or less.? I joined the club based largely on my hunger for information about 30's 40's and 50's Plymouths.? However, I'm interested in many aspects of the hobby and POC is not my only source by a long stretch.? I attend swap meets, car shows, hang out at all of the Plymouth forums I can find, collect photos, advertising and other memorabilia.? ?I want to know what was/is "original" and I do my best within reason to preserve some of that nostalgia so that I might enjoy it myself and share with others.? However,? I am also very interested in bringing and/or experiencing innovation and helping maintain or increase interest with an era of motor cars.? Interest that I believe will fade as this baby boomer generation I'm a part of also fades if we don't excite a new generation with those same cars.? ?So, I want my cake and I want to eat it too.? ?My solution has been to try to live with one foot in each world.? My preference would be for multiple cars sporting both attitudes but at the moment one is all I can afford.? I'm working to make my 49 Club Coupe both authentic and innovative by making it safer and more driveable...all through exploration of new ideas that have evolved largely from the Street Rod world.? ?Modifications like new running gears, dual master cylinder, disc brakes, new drive line, overdrive, 12 volt and some engine modifications don't seem like much change from original particularly if it keeps you on the road for more miles and excites the folks you talk with about the potential of old Mopar as personal transportation....and fun.? ? There are days I want to be out "Sunday" driving and there are days I want to be out "Friday Night Cruisin'".? ?But both attitudes in this split personality carry a love for the same thing.....cars.....and in this case Mopars....particularly Plymouths.? ? So, whether its the structure of the forum (give everybody a place where they can play with their ideas and questions) or whether its in a generally more tolerant attitude towards some level of modification to our cars it would be great to see this forum allow those differences to co-exist.? ? You always have the luxury in forums like this in sitting on the side lines and watching the game.? The tickets are pretty much free.

[blueskies]

I believe the Discussion board should be about the passion we all share for these old cars, sharing our experiences with them, and helping out fellow enthusiasts with the collective knowledge we have as a group.  It's truely remarkable that Plymouth owner's from around the globe can come together here via the internet to make this happen.  Without this type of support group my car would still be sitting a barn, or worse.  I think this board should do all it can to bring the group of owners, who are spread far and wide, together.   

That said, I think the disclaimer page on the forum short circuits the process, and immediately sets up an adversarial relationship with the visitors to the board and the POC.  I think it's fine to set up some "rules of the road" as many discussion boards do, but I think it could be done with a little more tact.  The disclaimer page is the very reason I dropped my POC membership, as it is abundantly clear my car and I aren't wanted, since the car isn't "correct and authentic". 

The Discussion Board is a terrific opportunity to promote the aims of the POC, and educate owners to do the right thing.  But by slamming the door to those who aren't already on board to do a points winning restoration, you've lost the chance.  Once they are here, you have a chance to reign them in and convince them to retain the essence of their cars.

If the POC wants the board to be absolutely focused on correct and authentic restoration, so be it, but I think the narrow focus will prevent the lively discussion this board once had, diminishing it's usefullness to the average Plymouth owner.  An opportunity lost in my opinion.

Pete Anderson

[Wayne]

I have had many totally stock cars, current one is a 1963 Dodge Dart Convertible (wifes car) It has taken many trophies at car shows, One best of show with 200 cars, stock and rods. I owned a 1939 Plymouth 4 door Deluxe fastback (slantback) when I joined the POC and Forum somewhere oround 1989/1990 . I also have a1939 Plymouth Pickup that is a full blown hotrod, it has a 341 Desoto hemi motor 904 trans, Lincoln rearend, mustang II power rack & pinion many other alterations such as chopped top (3 1/2 inches) electric windows, bucket seats, AC, It has never come away from any show that I entered it in without a trophy or award and it has been to many shows (40/50) in the past 6 years. I have 3 parts trucks that have I have sold numerous parts to other people restoring stock trucks. One a POC member bought the motor from my truck along with other parts and now has a beautiful restored Truck. My love is for old automobiles, motor scooters, of any type, I don't know why but my preferance has been Plymouths over the years. I have enjoyed the forum very much over the years.

[RobertKB]

I just posted this on the P15D24 forum. They have a lot of people that visit there and cars people have vary from stock, to slightly modified, to rodded. These are just my two cents (Canadian) worth. I am a regular visitor to the P15D24 forum and a member of the POC.
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I believe the intentions of the POC are good as I like my cars as stock as I can make them. However, sometimes unless you have an unlimited bank account, it is not possible to keep a car totally authentic. I also believe that many of the cars that attend POC meets are what I call over-restored and in quality are way beyond anything the factory would ever have turned out. My 1948 Dodge D25 Dodge Club Coupe does not have orignial style upholstery and I have painted the woodgrained dash and window mouldings grey. I did the car 25 years ago when I was younger and had a young family. I felt then and still do that I saved a car from the wrecking yard and am proud of it. That car has given me and my family a lot of enjoyment over the years. My point is, stock is great if you can afford it but others have a limited budget or other tastes and the POC should at least recognize this even if they base their judging on stock vehicles.

[mvair]

I don't think most people have the money, time, interest or energy to restore a 60 year old car to factory new condition.? It is great that many people just want to keep the old cars running.? There needs to be a forum for these folks.  However, I would not want to see the site taken over by 'rodders.

On the other hand, I have found it very difficult on this forum to actually get the correct answer to factory new restoration questions.? There are a lot of experienced and wise answers about what one would do, or what one has done that worked, but a paucity of actual details about restoration.

I suggest the board be turned loose to all those who want to keep the old cars running and set up a seperate question and answer forum for those who want the best available technical information about factory new restoration.? The questions could be posed by members, but the answers would be restricted to recognized experts.? Of course, that would mean getting the judges and technical representatives on line.? It seems most of them still only communicate by snail mail.

This would also compliment the new direction of the Pymouth Bulletin as explained in the last issue (i.e. to give more technical information about show restorations).

[plym_46]

I believe the lead in says all it needs to say about the forum. Though the official statement says the club promotes the authentic restoration of Plymouth automobiles,

THE OFFICIAL POLICY OF THE PLYMOUTH OWNERS CLUB, INC. IS TO PROMOTE THE CORRECT AND AUTHENTIC RESTORATION OF THE PLYMOUTH BRAND AND TO DISCOURAGE ANY ACTIVITIES, IDEAS OR PHILOSOPHIES CONTRARY TO THESE AIMS.

the next paragraph says:

The views expressed and information exchanged on this website are not necessarily the official position of the Plymouth Owners Club, Inc. All information exchanged on this forum is assumed at the readers own risk and the Plymouth Owners Club, Inc., its officers, directors and members are not liabile in any manner for the accuracy of information exchanged on this bulletin board.

So What's the problem?????? discussion is discussion, information is information, and as they say, knowledge is power.? And like dad said experience is like manure, doesn't do much good until you spread it.? Plymouth owners keeping an orphan brand running on the road and IN USE shouldn't be discouraged because they like extra plumbing, reliable trouble free ignitions, or heaven forbid brighter headlights.There should be room for all Plymouth related talk.?

Now if the club wants to maintain its insistance on factory style preservation for trophies More power to them, however I believe this too shall pass if the club wishes to prosper and survive.

After all use and enjoyment of a vehicle infers driving the beast further than from the trailer parking area to the show field........

Greg G
1946 P15 Deluxe Business Coupe

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6907/dsc00117sb.jpg

With Fenton Dual intake, 2 carter B1B's, aftermarket wheels, radial tires, and Baby Moons with trim rings.
driven about 2500 miles per season.

[mopardave]

I think it would be very difficult to decide what defines modified.  When I restored my '51, I made it look like it did in 1965 when I first got it....blue dot taillights and all.  Does that constitute a modification? 

[POC-Admin]

Don't ask me why I am doing this - I have been getting emails and it seems to be a problem for some people - I am NOT doing this with any sanction of the Officers of the club, I am doing it for me as one of the members.

This poll is all my idea - I did not talk to any other members or officers before I did it - so keep that in mind - what I mean is this is VERY INFORMAL!