For consideration of those candidates for club presidency

old-fart · October 20, 2009, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: 36 Ply on September 30, 2009, 11:09:39 PM
I've been a POC member since 1975. I'm not bothered in the least by the comments below from plym 46, Robert KB, and 49 plymouthclubcoupe. My '36 will aways be a driver as long as I own it; I can't afford to restore it.

I suspect that a sizeable percentage of POC membership has at least one Plymouth that isn't totally stock; they probably joined the club for companionship and information to keep their cars running.

I'm not advocating an "us" (owners of unrestored drivers) versus "them" (owners of restored vehicles) scenario, just stating my personal opinion.

Regards,
Pat O'Connor

I therefor respectfully nominate 36 Plyfor PRESSIE!! LOL....

Good to see ya on here FORDNUTZ!!! LOL

plym_46 · October 19, 2009, 04:32:17 PM

Just thought you might be interested to know that on another MOPAR forum, there have been more views and more responses to a question about a battery hold down for a P15 than there have been here for National Club President.

And I would like to know why to this day one candidate has failed to respond here or to three email's to his personal e mail account.
The response from the two candidates that I did hear from were less than inspiring, but at least they answered.

Speaks volumes in my mind.

49plymouthclubcoupe · October 08, 2009, 06:57:57 PM

Jim, I agree with Chet's assessment .... first and foremost the POC leadership has done a lot to maintain both a worthy program AND a quality publication.? Thank you is a phrase not often heard by those who commit the time and energy to maintain programs as distributed as POC.? ?So, a big thank you is in order.? ?I've only attended a short handful of POC events but I have been a member of the local POC for several years and have been a member of national for several years as well ... I'm thinking my membership this year may have lapsed but not because I don't wish to continue ... only due to lack of due diligence on my part and partly because of a lack of reminder by POC membership folks.? My dues will be forthcoming once again.? ?

I too don't want this to be framed as a discussion masked by the anonymous nature of the internet.? ?But please keep in mind that this particular forum is set up to allow AKA's and many of us do just that for the sake of advertising our personal interests ... not to hide in the darkness of the electrons.? ?My passion is the P18 Plymouth - 1949 2nd series.? ?Not many have them and not many love them but I do.? I have an original car that remains as original as they come and I have one that is undergoing some changes.? ?Both are great cars and I've learned a lot from them as well.? And, I help promote these cars and help others with these cars whenever and whereever I can.?

My earlier post regarding how the S.A.S.S. program is run (Single Action Shooting Society) was simply to provide some alternative thinking that is used by another club that has had and continues to have similar issues simplified to the extreme by saying "original" vs. "modified".? ? They have answered with a combination of options for members that by and large satisfies a membership that numbers in the 10's of thousands and continues to grow.? ?Original equipment, including firearms, clothing and technique still remain an important part of the club BUT they have also openly embraced a limited level of acceptable modifications to firearms, ammunition, clothing and techniques to provide a wide diversity of experiences for the particiipants.? ?When one grows shall we say weary of one combination you can try another combination and re-energize yourself with the new look, new firearm, changed techniques or the use of say black powder instead of smokeless powder.? ? A lot of combinations ... all acceptable and more iimportantly .. sanctioned openly .. under the same roof.? It just seems as if POC isn't willing to even discuss such an option ... even if only in a limited fashion.? A lot of us believe that is to the long term detriment of POC.? Maybe we are right ... maybe we are wrong.? ?But, the idea here is to at least try and stimulate a little discussion for consideration by the new leadership.? What do the candidates think about this idea ... ???

Maybe this isn't the right forum ... but if not here ... where?? ?When?? ?How does that discussion ever occur in a meaningful way?

John F. Smeltzer
Fort Collins, Colorado

plym_46 · October 08, 2009, 03:22:52 PM

Just suffered through three server failures in trying to reply to Chet's message.? ( Perhaps this is why there is not much traffic here, you really need the patience of a saint sometime to get a message loaded, read and replied to.)? I could understand if this was a chevy or ford forum but so many reliability issues are not what mopar owners are used to.?

Any way, I started this thread to get some input from the current cadidates, and get their reaction to the proposals for amending the rules ad classes and judging format with the intent that these or similar changes would attract more members and more vehicles at meets.? So far I have heard from 2 of the candidates, one through this forum, one through e mail and the third is conspicuous by his absence.

The idea was to give them an opportuity to put forth their ideas or proposals for continuing and improving the club and it relationship to the regions and the membership.? ?

I am suprised and disapointed by the lack of interest surrounding a national election for the top postion in the club.

I do appreciate the ideas and the support for some of my proposal that have been posted, which are all for some change.? Not one comment from the base, so either they are secure in the knowledge that there will be no changes and that none are needed,

or they do not visit this forum.

However to my eyes this non reaction does provide a telling barometer for the health of the organization.?

chetbrz · October 08, 2009, 10:58:28 AM

Dear Jim,

First and foremost my sincere thanks to you and the many other officers of the POC for their years of service to this club along with your joint and numerous contributions to this hobby.? ?Maybe this isn?t expressed enough and for this you have my apologies.? ?In relationship to the many long standing members of the POC many of us new comers who seem to be very verbal on matters of club doctrine are part of that group which you described as separated by distance and personal circumstance.? ?These circumstances ultimately limit us to this new medium of communication, the Internet.? ?

There is no doubt that the services that this club provides to its members and non-members alike is benevolent and focused on the antique car hobby and the preservation and authentic restoration of Plymouth automobiles.? ?This is and always should be the core function of the Plymouth Owners Club.? I don?t believe anyone on the left or right side of these discussions will disagree with that statement.? However I respectfully take some exception to the statement that the responses from members of this board are hidden behind the anonymity of the computer keyboard.? ?It is my belief that those members who remain separated by distance now for the first time have found their voice.? I encourage the senior membership of this club to have the patience and commitment to listen to all its members whether they are Internet based or well established within its organized regions.? ?

I also believe that the posts on this thread were presented in a positive and forthright manor and are worthy of consideration.? For those of us who are geographically disconnected this may be our only medium for discussing and brain storming progressive change in a constructive manor.? ?My only suggestion at this time is to fix this board so that we can continue to get connected and involved.? ?It appears that you are still using the SMF Version 1.0 Beta.? This should be upgraded to SMF Version 1.1.10

Respectfully,

Chester J. Brzostowski
303 N Aspen Ave.
Sterling VA? 20164
Cell 571-334-9380

POC member and member of the AACA

Jim Benjaminson · October 07, 2009, 10:36:06 PM

As the longest serving of the national club officers, I've been watching the various posts and comments about the club. Over the years, I've heard all sorts of complaints, bitchs, gripes, etc about one thing or another, from members, former members, etc. First, let me establish, no organization is perfect, whether it be the Plymouth Club, any of the Ford clubs, AACA or whatever, someone doesn't like something. And I've heard the complaint that the national club doesn't get involved enough with the regional groups, etc. So -- let's get down to brass tacks. And this is the same questions I've asked the regions or various individuals over the years. What can the national do to help the individual member, the regional group or whatever. We (the officers) are scattered across two countries, from east coast to west - 10 of us in total. I live in North Dakota. The President lives in Illinois, the vice-president in Nebraska, the corresponding secretary in Oregon, the editor in Canada, etc.

Here is what the national club does for the member. And remember, there are 3,200 members scattered across all 50 states, nearly all Canadian provinces and 26 countries overseas. First and foremost, we publish the magazine which for most members will be the only contact that member ever has with the club. When I joined back in 1967 I was the only member in North Dakota and the nearest member to me lived 500 miles away. And that is probably the case with many members, so the only contact we have is through the magazine. With the magazine members are kept informed of the club 's activities, which are open to any member (and to non-members as well). Need parts? Have parts to sell? We provide free advertising through the magazine.....no charge, no limit, nada. Free advertising. That's not to say you're going to find that elusive part but where better to start looking than in a magazine that goes to 3,200 Plymouth owners. In the early years, club meets were held only on the east coast of the USA - usually piggy-backed to some other event such as Macungie or Hershey. Over the years the club expanded and meets have been held coast to coast and in two countries. But someone has to put on those meets - local regions. The national officers can't do it. Once the regions were established the club provided funds and free advertising to the regions. The club provides insurance coverage at no charge to the regions sponsoring the meets. What more can the club do? We can't come and hold your hand while you restore your car. We provide free technical assistance - provided WE know the answers to your questions. We provide a free video library (free to regions - nominal $5 fee to members) to rent early product films we have on video. We publish how-to articles - provided we can find someone to write/photograph the information so we can publish it in the magazine. I could go on and on but I think you get the idea. We can't be there on a one-on-one basis and hold your hand, find you rare parts for little or nothing, etc. As a club we needed to establish guidelines for running the organization, guidelines for judging, etc. And we needed to set a purpose -- the AUTHENTIC restoration of these cars. This is not to say that you cannot modify your car if you want to. Just don't expect it to be judged and not pay a penalty for the changes. True, some changes are for the better - such as disc brakes but motorists drove for 50 years before the first disc brakes came along and got along without them.

The officers devote a lot of time to this organization and we are willing to listen to suggestions from the members. At the present time election ballots are in the mail for new officers -- most of whom you already know because no one else stepped up to say "I want a chance to to make changes by being an officer of this club". Let us hear from you - put your ideas to pen and paper and send them to us. Don't hide behind the anoniminity of the computer keyboard and complain. I agree that driving our Plymouths is a lot more fun than judging them at a meet -- and it was suggested at our last board meeting that we have strictly non-judged driving meets--and that suggestion came from our long-time technical director Earl Buton. Let's have some constructive ideas and thoughts tossed out here for discussion.

Cliff54 · October 07, 2009, 01:35:12 AM

I think that the POC is a wonderful group of car enthusiasts? in which I am proud to belong!
I am new to the Hobby (only 5 years) but I really enjoy DRIVING my 54 Savoy and taking her to local car shows! There is no way I'm ever going to win (Origonal restored class) over the "Chevy tri-fives" BUT......
A good friend told me that I got into the hobby for only $1.500! He said that I? get to drive a classy Savoy to the shows and wave at the people on the road just like a 1957 Chevy! I get to show people what they had almost forgot! ..... That back in the Camelot days of Detroit, there was a company that made cars for ... US (the average working person)
I believe in the POC and even though I am new to this Club I think we need to be thinking of attracting the Muscle Plymouths and people who LIKE ME own something as esoteric as a 54 Savoy and a 77 Volare.

Cliff54

GWR · October 06, 2009, 04:56:15 PM

Got sidetracked, but just posted a new thread.

plym_46 · October 06, 2009, 03:55:48 PM

Are you starting a new thread, or referring back to the current judging form???

GWR · October 06, 2009, 02:02:18 PM

This thread has developed into a lot subject a long ways from the original c"consideration of those candidates for club presicency" so I guess I'll try to help by maybe separating topics.

First I want to say I think that it is the responsibility of the club board to continually look at the changes that are happening and determine how best to address those concerns.

There have been several different things brought up here and to address ONLY ONE of them I am starting a new topic, and that is the issue of JUDGING and which cars should be judged. Please see it under Judging and show.

Thanks, Gary Rusher, Pres. Cascade Pacific

captbrian41 · October 04, 2009, 09:21:08 AM

my two cents for what it's worth being a driver and HPOF car is that the looks on the faces of oldsters and youngsters alike is priceless when I'm showing my car at local events. I drive my car in a radius of 100 miles from New Bern, NC and I do it for the get together not the trophy. If I'm lucky and my region club of the AACA has enough participants going to a show we form up in the morning and drive to the event and then we can leave when we want to and make our own way home. To me that's fully enjoying the car, club and life with a 68 year old vehicle. I can travel about 55 comfortably on todays roads with the stock, original drive train on my '41 coupe and intend to install an OD (my only deviation from factory) this winter just to make it a little easier on her engine at 55. Coker classics, new shoes and rebuilt wheel cylinders and master cylinder make her as safe to drive as anything else on the road and with proper maintenance eg: tune ups and oil changes and the like she is reliable. I carry spares of everything in my toolbox so not only does the car get there it can get home also. I would love to attend a Plymouth event but probably would only go if it is close to me on the east coast, say 300 miles or so. Again it would be to meet some of you folks that I see all the time on this forum and talk Plymouth (can't talk to those Ford guys) and hang out. Anything else would be a plus.
captbrian41

Captain Neon · October 02, 2009, 10:56:36 PM

Perhaps I don't understand National POC oversight of national meets, but is there any reason other than lack of trophy subsidy and a need to set specific judging criteria that plym_46's suggestions could not be done as an experiment by the Cascade Pacific region at the 2010 Summer meet? I already see that they intend to have an "Open Class" and "Honored Guest Parking."

plym_46 · October 02, 2009, 10:52:33 AM

Thanks for your response. Perhaps something like the Model A group which has a touring classification. This would see cars that are basically stock but with changed for reliability, driveability and saftey, not garnering minus points, if the changes are easily reversible to "factory" As was pointed out, most of the totaly restored cars have many non factory parts installed to allow them to present a factory appearence. My car (I bought it fromt he original owner) is 95% as it came from the factory, but would only garner about 55 points in judging based on it current presentation. So its more factory tha some of the 90 point cars but doesn't get recognized as such because it is a driver not a restoration. It only non original pieces are the engine,(from a 56) wheels, intake manifold, seat covers, and new painyet it will never be recognized as such under the current points system. Its not a show pony, its allowed to stretch it legs and get sweaty, and that's the way I like it.

Your response that a comittee or working group be assembled to look at these area of concerns, seems to be one way to go.

ndesimone · October 02, 2009, 10:44:43 AM

I firmly believe the National has to have more interaction with members in the existing regions. Look to the sons or daughters or friends of current members for their thoughts on the direction the club should take. Listen to their ideas, may them feel a part of the organization, after all the future belongs to them.
As mentioned in my earlier post, we need a committee to look into changes and come up with positve recommendations if we wish to remain a strong and growing organization.
My 1940 Plymouth Business Coupe is pretty much stock and I drive it often in and around where I live. I have made trips in excess of 200 miles one way for some of our regional events. I live in the eastern part of LA County and plan on driving my car to the Oregon National Meet next year and will be looking at what needs to be done to make that trip easier and more comfortable.

ndesimone · October 02, 2009, 10:30:27 AM

I believe in the "Purpose of the Organization" as stated in the National Constitution. Here in the Golden States Region, since we cover such a vast and sometimes remote areas, we look to making our cars safer and more reliable so we can drive them more often. We just had our regional annual meeting in Pismo Beach and the shortest distance traveled took approximately 3 hours and the longest about 5 1/2 hours. None of the Plymouths were heavily modifed but they weren't truly stock. As a Region, we have discussed the "stock" and "modified" issue many times. We don't differentiate regionally and welcome both categories. We believe that there is a need for both, more so, as we and our cars get older and we want to keep and increase younger members in the club.
Not to muddy the waters but at our National Meet in 2007, knowing we would have a number of "modifed" Plymouths, we kept them apart from the cars to be judged and formed a small group of regional members to "judge" them using general guidelines. They appreciated our efforts and will I believe continue to "stick around".
I would like to see a committee formed, staffed by members from diverse regions, to make recommendations to the National Board on how to handle this very topic. Addressing change in a positive way is the key to getting support from the members and the National Board.
The structure as it exist now for the restoration and preservation and judging of Plymouths, etc., maintains the tradition on which the club was founded. That is not to say that changes should not be welcome. We need to look ahead to the future and decide how to best serve all members, those that have "stock" vehicles and those that have "modifieds". They don't have to be inter-mixed as one. We can't sit back and do nothing or we will lose the interest of many members. We can't go on the premise that we have approximately 3000 members who primarily are members in name only and love receiving the Bulletin. We want to entice more current members and future members to actually be involved in the club by letting us know what works and what doesn't and their ideas and suggestions on improving it and will step up and help to implement changes as they are needed. Enough said for now.

36 Ply · September 30, 2009, 11:09:39 PM

I've been a POC member since 1975. I'm not bothered in the least by the comments below from plym 46, Robert KB, and 49 plymouthclubcoupe. My '36 will aways be a driver as long as I own it; I can't afford to restore it.

I suspect that a sizeable percentage of POC membership has at least one Plymouth that isn't totally stock; they probably joined the club for companionship and information to keep their cars running.

I'm not advocating an "us" (owners of unrestored drivers) versus "them" (owners of restored vehicles) scenario, just stating my personal opinion.

Regards,
Pat O'Connor

49plymouthclubcoupe · September 30, 2009, 10:05:21 PM

I for one think it's a great idea. If we are looking to attract "new blood" this would be a great starting point for the discussion. I can think of parallels in another area that I participate in ... Cowboy Action Shooting. CAS is one of the fastest growing and one of the most fun shooting activities that there is. Period correct is a part of the fun, both with costuming, firearms and ammo used, but a wide variety of categories are available to participate in and many many awards offered giving a LOT of folks, beginners to experts, a chance to "win". And the most important thing is that the numbers continue to grow and the participatiion has even spread to several European countries as well. Talk about growth! All it took was to create another way for folks to participate and do so in such a way that they have an enjoyable time spending the little time that most of them have to recreate. Why not apply a similar model in our car world .... beginning with the ideas Plym_46 suggests below. Heck it's at least worth the discussion and trying it somewhere ... why not at a POC event?

RobertKB · September 30, 2009, 04:10:23 PM

I was a member of the POC for one year but just found the attitude of some, although not all members, rather hard to take. I would consider rejoining as there is a region (Western Canada) near me if there was a slight change in the direction of the club. The comments made by plym_46 are the type of suggestions I like to see and are more than reasonable.

I too respect the members of the POC who want to keep their cars totally original when restored with the right engine, clamps, upholstery, etc. However, the two cars I have would not do very well in that category. I do have a totally original (except headliner and carpet) 1953 Plymouth Belvedere 4-door but the paint although very shiney and original has lots of gravel rash and some scratches. The chrome is tired, it has wrong clamps on hoses, and new style fan belt. However, I bet there is more "original" material from the factory on this car than any restored vehicle. I plan on keeping this car as a survivor and would appreciate an appropriate category for it. My other car I believe qualifies for the club is the Plymouth based Dodge D25 Club coupe. This car has an later model 251 CID flathead in it from a truck. It has incorrect upholstery, gray painted window mouldings and dash, as well as modern style tires. However, it is a driver and gets lots of miles, some even on gravel. I don't want this car to be judged but also don't want it sneered at either. It is a good, very reliable driver that gives a lot of pleasure.

I think if the POC is to survive in the long term, it needs to adapt enough to attract new members. Certainly keep your judging standards for those who want that but remember there are lots of people not interested in judging. They want to drive their cars, go to club events, enjoy other members' company, eat and drink well, and just have fun. Don't turn away prospective members who would like to show their cars at POC events, just give them another area to put them. This usually costs nothing and will encourage them to look more closely at the POC.

If the POC stays as it is, I believe it is doomed to oblivion in 15 to 20 years. It has to be open to some change.

plym_46 · September 30, 2009, 02:59:02 PM

Lets see if this will fly as a town meeting and stay civil

This will probably get me kicked off the forum as I will be espousing some non purist thoughts but here goes anyway.? I would hope that general membership would chime in in support of and or against these proposals with some well though out comments.

I just attended the POC meet in Maryland.? There were some very nice Plymouths in attendence, and some very nice folks also.

However there was a definate lack of new members about.? One of the resons I think keeps folks from being attracted to these events is the Factory Stock Only preservation.? Now this is a good thing and has kept the club going for a good many years, however, there seems to be more In Memoriums in the newsletters than Welcome New Members.? Attracting new folks to the factory only gospel will become more and more difficult as time goes by.

Here is what I would like to see:

Create a seperate class for non stock cars, which would allow the use of bolt on modifications that are period correct to the car they are installed upon, and which would not hinder the car from being returned easily to stock configuration.? Things like modified or after market intakes using period correct carburetors, split exhaust or period correct headers, wheel and tire combinations which are roadworthy and enhance the safety and drivability of a car. Safety upgrades like disc brakes, even engine swaps where the engine is from a mopar and of the same basic design.

Many engine swaps were performed as routine maintanence back in the day, when the stock engine wore out at 60 or 70 k.? A trip though a junk yard would find Plymouth engines in Dodges, Dodge engines in Plymouths, car engines in trucks and truck engines in cars.? I am not suggesting that a P12 should have a slant 6 or a late model 318 without a deduction, but a P12 with a later model flat head 6 is well within the relm of what may have trasnpired under the shade tree, in the garage, at Sears and Roebucks, or even at a dealership.? Totally disallowing points for an engine that is basicaly the same design from 35 to 62 doesn't make much sense and doesn't ease the process of putting an Plymouth back on the road, and making it a road worthy car.

And speaking of road worthy, I drive my car? (46 P15) to Plymouth events, Vermont, Charlotte, Detroit and now Mayrland.? Our recent trip comprised 975 miles.? As the statement of purpose the POC has this as a lead in sentence:

The purpose of the Club is to encourage the use, preservation and restoration of Plymouth and Fargo automobiles and trucks, 25 years of age or older, particularly the AUTHENTIC restoration of these models

Use first, preservation second and restoration third.

So lets honor the use by awarding points to Plymouth Automobiles (n self mobile) that appear at events under their own power.? Create a Driveability Section of the judging process.? Those that are still used as they were designed to be used, to transport people and their belongings from one place to another would garner points.? ?Conversly those cars that have been relagated to moveable sculpture, those that do not see the outside more than from the garage to the trailer to the show field and back, would loose a few points owing to not being used as designed.? One could even go so fars as to say if they haven't gone more than 10 miles since the last show they would get no points in this catagory.

Preservation would honor those that are drivers, maybe with some mismatched parts, or even some of the upgrades mentioned above, that allow the car to be kept on the road, representing the Plymouth brand, and not sneered at because their engine if from an incorrect series, or even other brand if it mopar.

And Authentic restorations would be those turned out under the letter of the judging sheet.? But the way the sentence is written it should welcome any and all Plymouths and their owners that appear and meet the age requirement.?

I believe these changes would open the club up to a more diverse audience while maintaning it quest for the authentic restoration as well.

So as this may be my last post for a while I will lurk and read comments, and hopefully or candidates will respond with their thoughts as well.? but traffic here being what it is I shall not b suprised if there is little or no response.