Seized brakes on a 39

1939P8 · September 28, 2009, 02:09:43 AM

I thought my brakes were seized on by P8, only to find out that my master cylinder needed to be rebult, and that freed up everything. Gary

Wm Steed · June 02, 2009, 01:57:51 PM

When I found my '39 Plym conv it had been sitting in an open field in Montana for 38 years. The car had sunk into the sod so the drums had been exposed to a lot of moisture in the lower portions of the drums. Needless to say the drums were seized hard as a rock to the shoes. In spite of the fact that the dust covers were missing from the front wheel bearings, I was able to "worry" the front drums off by removing the bearing nuts, applying a lot of penetrating oil to the bearing and tapping on the drums to loosen the rust from the shoes.

The rear drums proved to be another matter. It is near impossible to get oil into the drum/brake area. Since the tires were all flat and hard as a rock from age, they just acted like ski's when we attempted to tow the car. After getting the car home I put tires on the wheels that would hold air, the rear wheels still refused to roll. A large bar across the lug bolts proved futile. As a last resort I started trying to rock the car back and forth. after several attempts to rock the car a loud bang was heard and the rear drums broke loose.

Through the years I have dealt with many engines that were stuck and/or had been out of service for many years. I have found that Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) is one of the "Holy Grails" of the old car world. Why is this?... It is a mystery.?? ::)? ?On engines that are not going to be ran for awhile, or have not ran for awhile, I pull the plugs and fill the cylinders full of MMO. I fill the cylinder with the hope that some of the MMO will make it into the valve area and thereby free up any stuck valves. I will let the MMO sit in the engine for weeks/months before I attempt to turn the engine over....Bill

39 Coupe · June 01, 2009, 06:21:36 AM

Or maybe it was 2 tablespoons of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder.

I've forgotten. Anyway, I don't think you can overdo it. Hopefully it will all drain past the rings and into the crankcase, given time.

And the Marvel Mystery Oil I still have in my garage is now 15 years old. Probably I ought to get a new can of it. May have lost its pizzaz after 15 years.

Do they still make Marvel Mystery Oil?

39 Coupe · June 01, 2009, 05:33:52 AM

Thanks.

Will look into finding some Trisol.? In the meantime I've got lots of Blaster and figured I'd try that on the one wheel cylinder I removed the bleeder from.? Blaster has worked well for me in the past for different projects.? As a previous poster noted Blaster might do a number on what's left of the rubber parts inside the wheel cylinder, but maybe not.? Going to try it anyway.

Found a long piece of thin enough vinyl tubing, that I can see through and won't get any crap in my mouth.? Will draw a siphon and drain out whatever brake fluid is inside the wheel cylinder and then squirt Blaster in the hole to fill it as much as possible.? Then let it sit a few days.?

I've got a 6 foot long cheater bar I can attach to a lug wrench.? Plan after a few days is to wiggle the cheater bar back and forth on a lug nut while tapping the drum with a ball peen hammer.? Will get a neighbor to help me with that.

Seems like that has a good chance of working.? If so only 3 more wheels to go and I can roll the Plymouth out of my garage where I can see things better.

In the meantime I really should start freeing up the motor.? Seems like I remember using Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders many years ago- about 15 years ago when the car had only been sitting for about 3 years.? -----a couple teaspoons in each cylinder then let it set a few days, then use a long screwdriver on the flywheel gears to get some movement and that worked very well back then to free up the motor.

Then again it's been another 15 years gone by this time ----so may not be as easy to free up the motor now.

Any suggestions?? Anything better to use than Marvel Mystery Oil?

Thanks for all the help.

1938P6 · May 30, 2009, 01:04:00 PM

Hello have you ever herd or Trizol penetration oil it is very good it has caster oil in it you might try it all around the drum and in the adjuster nuts and if you take out the bolts on the wheel cylinders spray in there if you spray it in the cylinders through the bleeder it will probably be bad it will need changing any way which can be bought at Roberts motor parts in Mass. and or Andy Burnbaum in Mass. we did that last year with our 1938 coup the penetrating spray will loosen up the piston in the wheel cylinders in the front one the back ones we have Auto Zone by us who rents you tools and refund the money back after you bring back the tool we rented the puller and pulled the brake drums off but in your case you will have to do the same as the the fronts with the penetrating oil around the drum and getting in side the wheel cylinders it seams like the brake fluid pressure made the wheel cylinders spread and all these years it rusted in the wheel cylinders in the push out position we did not rebuild the cylinder we got new ones later when you work on the engine you will have to put some penetrating oil in the engine cylinders and let it soak try to move the fly wheel forward and back little buy little so not to brake a piston rings once it is free drain the oil and put new in we had to do that years ago it seized in a short time in weeks as I remember it would not start one time it had a bad battier so 18 years it is going to that some time to get it un seized so take your time yours truly Jim Clark

MRR41 COUPE · May 30, 2009, 09:42:23 AM

Your right, what I suggested is extrem. You must remember the last thing you want to do is force the drum to rotate and put a heavy gouge in it. Once the drum is gouged its very hard to regrind. Someone else might have a better ideal. I think your rotating the cams in the right direction but I don't have a backing plate in front of me now to check it out for sure. Good luck

39 Coupe · May 30, 2009, 07:36:45 AM

Wow---

Some great ideas there.? This board is terrific!

It's been at least 25 years since I did a brake job on the Plymouth, and possibly my memory is bad and am doing the eccentric cam adjustments backwards.? As I recall basically going inwards with the adjustment nuts releases and going outwards tightens the brakes.?

In other words, looking at the back side of the back plate, I am turning the left nut clockwise and the right nut counterclockwise to release.? And turning the left nut counterclockwise and the right nut clockwise to tighten. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.

I don't see how that last suggestion from MRR41 Coupe would not work, although a little extreme.? ?And do see how that would not really damage anything permanently.? Will do that as a last resort.

Thanks to all. And any other suggestions greatly appreciated.

MRR41 COUPE · May 29, 2009, 11:33:17 AM

If I had the same problem as you are having on your car I would not destroy the drums by cutting them. I would drill a couple of holes in the drum over the area the pads hit, one at the top of each pad and one at the bottom of each pad. I would start at 1/4 inch and work towards a 3/8 inch hole. I would drill the hole till it just touches the brake pad, be carefull wear a mask this could be asbestes. Put some blaster in the holes and then hit the pad with a 5/16 inch flat punch. Let the blaster set and repeat as needed. The drum would be easy to weld and turn and the shoes would need to be repadded anyway, Try it, unless someone has a better way.
Mike

39 Coupe · May 29, 2009, 07:15:14 AM

Have tried tapping with a ball peen and also a small sledge hammer all the way around the drum.? So far hasn't helped, but maybe I'm not "tapping" hard enough.? Cast iron drum.? How hard can you hit it without either deforming or cracking the drum??

Maybe I'm just being too gentle.? ?Replacement Mopar parts are so hard to get (compared to Chevy or Ford)------that I'm extra leery about hurting or breaking anything that make take months or years or be impossible to replace.

Can I give the drum some? real good smacks with my ball peen or small sledge?? How hard can I hit it??

plym_46 · May 28, 2009, 11:13:50 AM

some times siezed brakes can be released by some well placed hammer blows to the drum and to the backing plate. When ever we try to move a vehicle that has been sitting for some time we always take the hand sledge of a big ball peen hammer. A few taps can set up enough vibration to allow the spring to pull the shoes back into a relaxed position.

TodFitch · May 28, 2009, 10:20:30 AM

Quote from: 39 Coupe on May 28, 2009, 01:10:08 AM
...snip... My latest idea is to syphon out all brake fluid from that cylinder out of the hole where the bleeder was and squlrt Blaster into the wheel cylinder and let it set for a few days.? Don't see how that could hurt anything and might work.? Blaster is amazing stuff. ...snip...

If, as I assume, Blaster has petroleum products in it then it is like to swell the rubber cups and if they are already not stuck add to your problem.

39 Coupe · May 28, 2009, 01:10:08 AM

Thanks for the input.?

Have done most of that.? Working on the front brakes right now because they are easier and need no puller.? Have tried dragging the car with a chain to see if that would free things up.? Not at all.? Car just slid not roll.? Adjustments on back of plate are free and all the way in--released.

Have a torch, but not ready to try heat yet, because not sure where to apply heat and might damage something.

Have pulled the bleeder out of the wheel cylinder on one front? wheel.? My latest idea is to syphon out all brake fluid from that cylinder out of the hole where the bleeder was and squlrt Blaster into the wheel cylinder and let it set for a few days.? Don't see how that could hurt anything and might work.? Blaster is amazing stuff.

If that works, same process should work on the other three wheels. I did borrow a wheel puller for the rear wheels from a neighbor of mine who is into old cars.? So am all ready for the rear wheels if successful with the front ones.

Again any suggestions much appreciated.? ?Possibly a better solvent than Blaster mlight work better.

Jim Benjaminson · May 27, 2009, 11:58:52 PM

You will have to jack it up and remove the brake drums - there are two large nuts at the rear of the backing plate - try backing those off (moving the brake shoes away from the drum). If they are still stuck to the drums, you will need to break them loose, by moving the car back and forth. You will need a special puller to remove the rear drums. If you go to the home page of this website you will find an article on how to go about removing the drums. My guess is your brake cyinders are full of crud which has pushed the shoes out against the drums.

39 Coupe · May 27, 2009, 11:05:41 PM

Hi--

Bought this car in 1960 when I was 17 years old. Was a good daily driver until I put it in my garage in 1992. Brakes seized up within months of sitting in a nice comfy garage---don't know why Couldn't free them then and gave up easily since I had little time to fool with it.

Now retired (mostly) and have lots of time. Still can't get them free. Of course this is just the first problem. Never have tried to start a car that has been sitting for 18 years. Don't want to damage anything. Will have lots more questions later on. But right now main problem is getting the car to move and out of my garage.

Thanks for all and any help in this.