Is an Essex a legitimate ancestor of Chrysler vehicles

[Wm Steed]

There is no doubt that preventive maintenance (PM) and continued use will/can prolong the life of the worst engines, in lieu of sitting for long periods of time, only being used for "Sunday Go To Meeten's" and the store will shorten the life of the best engines....Bill

[12905]

I don't for one minute doubt Bill's statement about vehicles manufactured for commercial purposes; they were "beefed up" from what the great unwashed public was offered. This may have been true where he lived and worked, but the models we worked on were plain everyday vehicles, not one Dodge/Plymouth taxi I ever serviced was a heavy duty vehicle with a possible exception of the suspension on some of them. In the late forties/early fifties there was a "rural use" suspension package offered on Canadian Dodge/Plymouth. The package raised the ride height of the car by offering larger diameter wheels and narrower tires as well as stiffer springs and was designed to help farmers navigate deep snow in the winter and deep mud in the spring break-up. The only heavy duty Chryco engines I ever saw were those designated "T" (for truck use) and had some internal mods including sodium cooled exhaust valves.

I attributed the collective long life of the engines to two things: a) almost no shut-downs except for service, so very few cold starts and; b) very regular oil and filter changes and the use of good oil.

I worked on a very wide range of different cars/light trucks during my period as a mechanic and instructor, and it would be very difficult to convince me that anything made by the other mainstream manufacturers of the day were equal, or superior to, those manufactured by Chrysler. Mind you, all bets are off if you speak of vehicles made in the late seventies and forward, Chrysler engineering was good, but the execution???

[David Pollock]

Bill has a very interesting perspective and the cynic in me suspects that he is correct. Follow the money.

He is also correct in stating that debating the virtues of fifty year old automobiles is futile.  But it  can be fun.  And that is what this hobby is all about.

[Wm Steed]

Trying to debate the vitues of a perticular car, truck or engine is futile, it is like trying to debate as to what religion is best or as to what size/style of a woman makes the best lover/wife.

There are several factors that come into play when one compares the commercial application of vehicles, ie; taxis', ambulances, and police, to private everyday vehicles, generally speaking you are not comparing apples to apples, it is more like apples to oranges.
Having worked around and in the car dealerships in the late 1940's, early 50's I know that vehicles brought in for the taxi companys were generally all heavy duty vehicles that were very simular to the police cars. There are two more factors that come into the equation:  The commercial vehicle is built to a design as specified by the intended use, where-as the private vehicle is built to a buget for price competition.

I worked for a Ford dealership in 1950/51, the owner of the dealership owned the Yellow Car francise for most of Idaho. He replaced the vehicles in the fleet about every two years with new CHEVROLET'S, why I have no idea, probably price and a more economiicl six cyln engine.  The used Chevy's were brought to the Ford dealership and parked out back. As time permitted we would run a couple at a time through the body shop, where I worked, painting them Ford's seafoam green and putting them on the used car lot.

I resently read an article that was about the application of chassis's and power plants for speciall applications.  As most of you might know the Chrysler six was a very popular engine in marine applications, (Gray Marine) and others. The Chrysler six also was used in grain combines, hay machines, compressors, etc.. Was this wide spread application because they were such superior engines?...... Not reallly.... the article stated that the Chrysler engines were so popular because Chrysler had a policy of suppyling  engines and chassis' to speciality builders on a pay us later plan..... As a general rule the builder did not have to pay for the engines, etc., until the completed machine (s) were sold. Neither Ford or GM would do this, they wanted their money up front, usually with a sizable deposit before the engine (s) etc., were committed to the special project....Bill

[David Pollock]

12905 mentions the "soft crank" myth.  Gretton Brown, late of Victoria BC had a 48 Dodge limo which he used in the taxi business and claimed to have travelled 650 000 miles on 3 engines without crankshaft problems. He was a mechanic for C&C taxi at the time both owners were killed in a plane crash near Nitinat Lake.

Gretton insisted that any crankshaft failure was due to dirt which embedded itself in the soft bearing material and was fanatical about regular oil changes.  A service pamphlet for Army vehicles cites a study which supports his view.

I would be interested to learn more about high miler flatheads.  I do know of several which went past the 100 000 mile mark but in my experience, the average pre overhaul period was about 75000 miles.

[12905]

"Plymouths" got it right. I qualify as one of the old guys in Western Canada and we certainly called all Essex, and sometimes the 6-cylinder Hudsons, by that name.

Speaking of reliability, when I was in my early twenties, virtually all taxis and ambulances in our area were Plymouth/Dodge for taxis and? Dodge/DeSoto/Chrysler seven-passenger conversions for ambulances. I serviced a couple of taxi fleets for years, and unless a contract owner running his own car in the fleet was a certified GM nutcase, we saw nothing but Plymouths/Dodges. I omitted Ford because I never saw a Ford product used in taxi or ambulance service.

At that time, all the Chrysler products (all flatheads, no v8's) had the reputation of having soft crankshafts and, supposedly, did not take kindly to high revs. That might have been true, but I never saw any real evidence of it. Speed law enforcement in our area was not a high priority, and certainly taxi drivers working on a percentage basis not not spare the horses, and neither did ambulance drivers on emergency calls. I consistently saw mileages in the mid to high 200,000 range between major overhauls with the taxis. I know ambulance engines produced less mileage, but
they were driven at very high speeds for long distances as they covered a lot of territory.

Later on, I moved into the parts rebuilding business and we did all types of engines, among other components. Very rarely did I see a Chrysler engine with a thrown rod, but I saw lots of others, mostly the Chev 'stovebolt six' - and early Jeep four cylinder. That was the period in my life that solidified my strong attachment to anything made by Chrysler Coproration - at least up to about the early seventies.

[Wm Steed]

Jim is right about the speed limits in most of the Western US, Idaho and Nevada, like Montana, had no speed limit other than "safe & prudent/reasonable & proper". Utah had a two tiered speed law, 60 day, 55 night, of course we never paid much attention to the 60 mph, especially when we were heading west on the Utah desert heading to Speed Week on the salt flats.

I got a big shock when I was in the service and got transfered east to Maryland in 1956. I was married and had a '53 Olds Super 88 2dr sdn. My wife and I loaded up our stuff and headed out on what we thought would be a non stop high speed burn to Maryland. We incountered a lot of mid-western states that had 55 mph speed limiits. I figured I was going to jail in Nebraska, I was doing about 100 mph when I "woke up" a state trooper that was parked behind a billboard. His Ford was no contest compared to my Olds until I hit some ground fog, slowing me to about 70. I figured I would find myself standing in front of JP in some hick town, instead the officer was more interested in my car, telling me that his Ford intercepter was out classed by the Olds.  The officer told me his next car was going to be an Olds, evidently the officer had to supply his own vehicle.

My grandfather was a boot legger in Idaho and Montana. He started a stage line in the early 1920's as a front to run bonded  whiskey into Montana/Idaho from Canada. Grandad prefered Buicks and Chryslers, I have a picture of my mother that was taken in 1927 standing by my grandfathers 1927 Chrysler. One of my uncles is still alive that used to drive for my grandfather.  He has neat stories about driving cars loaded with passengers and booze in blizzards in Montana and  Idaho.

I had a neighbor when I was a teenager in Idaho, Paul and his wife had no kids so they took me under their wing. We would go fishing and hunting, Paul especially like bird hunting and his wife made the best lunches. Paul also liked Studebakers. Early one fall morning, just about dawn we were heading out accross an area west of Idaho Falls that is refered to as "the desert" by the locals to go pheasant hunting. We were cruising at about 80 in Pauls '50 Stude, we came over a raise in the road, the hollow below was filled with a band of sheep that was being moved on the highway. Paul laid on the horn which started the sheep scattering, he was able to stop the car before we hit the sheep. Paul had a short temper, exiting the car he and the herder really went at it, shouting and calling each other names, I just wanted to find a clean pair of shorts.

The first time I went  100 mph was in 1946 in a 1937 Stude President that belonged to a friend of my fathers....Bill

[FourDoor]

The high reving small displacement engine in the Essex had a very short life on North American roads. The engine had lots of 'go' when it was new but it died a quick death. There were dealers around me here in Canada but I know of no Essexs in any club member's hands today. They were in fact called 'assaches' in their day as a derogatory name. The old guys in our clubs don't have a good word to say about them. That's not to say they're not an excellent collectible now.? ?

[Jim Benjaminson]

Bill - interesting story about the speeds "out west" in the early days.  Some years ago club member Lindy Willis was given a packet of oil company "tour sheets" - the ones where you told the oil company where you wanted to go and they planned your route for you.  This particular packet (two of them, actually) were done for a lady who I believe was a school teacher, driving first a mid 30's Plymouth and then a '39 Plymouth to the west coast.  Lindy passed the package along to me for a future story for the Bulletin.  Included in the packet was an original 1941 North Dakota road map.  In the corner of the map was a listing of the state speed limits for the 48 states.  I couldn't believe the limts (or lack there of, as many had no limit or were like Montana - "reasonable & proper".  Thinking about how many Model T's were on the road back then compared to a "new" car such as my '40
Plymouth, the speed differential between the two cars was astounding.  I'll bet a good many accidents of the day were caused by a newer, faster car overtaking the slower, older car that probably had very poor lighting in regard to taillamps, stop lamps, etc. 

The Essex was, from what I understand, originally intended as an export car, with a small bore motor to get around English/European tax laws.  Speeds in the "wide-open" USA wreaked havoc on the motor.  The big Hudson's, with the "F" head six's were something else - a favorite with the boot leggers in this part of the country who routinely outran the Federals with their 4 cylinder Chevies and Model T Fords......Studebaker was also a favorite rum runner...I've got a bonafide '25 Stude runner in the garage thats been in the family for 80 years!

[12905]

Bill & David: Thanks for all the excellent input. I hope it is helpful to someone else as well. I thnk the Jeep is an excellent choice, especially coupled with a torqueflite. In addition, it ties the ancestor to the modern family. Much as the Chev small block is an excellent engine - one of the few things GM has done really well in the past half a century - I would never consider using it in anything but a GM product.The untimate irony from my point of view was seeing an altered Ford at a show carrying a sign that siad "built tough using Chevrolet stuff".

[Wm Steed]

I have a '91 Jeep Cherokee with the high output 4.0 FI 6 cyln. (242 CID) and AT. The unit has 152,000 miles on it and runs like new. My mechanic tells me that he has seen many of the  late model 4.0's go over 200,000 if they are properly maintained.... I would think that the 4.0 would make an excellent engine to swap into an earlier chassis....Bill

[David Pollock]

 I have done a number of engine swaps over the years, and the most difficult, but very successful was a slant six into a 50 Plymouth. However, I have returned to a 50 which runs a stock engine and I like it better.

If I were to choose another six to swap into an earlier car, I would have a really good look at the AMC / Jeep six which I believe is a 232 cubic inch unit and evolved from a McKinnon Industries engine developed by GM. This engine is cheap to obtain and as reliable as anything available today. Coupled with Chrysler's torqueflite, it is an unbeatable combination which would be a natural in an older Hudson, given the corporate evolution.

Hudson's own engines, apart from the formidable 308, ( Twin H Power ) are  very limited by their splash oiling systems .  Indeed they are a mixture of exotic and pathetic. Splash oiling and roller tappets all in the same engine. Amazing.

[Wm Steed]

I might be accused of commiting blasphemy with my following statements, but here goes anyway.
In reality the majority of the old engines, ie, those made prior to about 1954/55 were not that reliable once they had a few miles on them or if the were ran at speeds over 50 MPH for an extended period of time. Yes, there were exceptions with some of the larger cars and those few that were equiptd with over drives.

A storey comes to mind that was told to me by a fellow that had purchased a '39 Plymouth conv. coupe in 1939.... He owned the car until he died in about 2002. He told me that in 1940 he tried to catch a Greyhound bus that had left Idaho Falls heading to Salt Lake.  He could not remember why he tried to chase the bus down, just that he had tried. After driving the Plymouth for a little over fifty miles at about the maximum speed it would go, the engine tossed a rod. He had the car towed back to Pocatello to the dealer. The dealer rebuilt the engine, when Marrion picked the car up he was told to NEVER drive the car over 45 MPH again. Marrion claimed he never drove the car over 45 MPH again, even when he drove the car from Idaho Falls to Los Angeles in 1941 and a trip to Seattle in 1945.

It is true that the earlier Hudsons did not fair well when driven hard, and the oil clutch was a nightmare which Hudson elected to stay with for many years inspite of it's extreme cost and failure rate. *They stayed with it because the system was so smooth and soft which made the vehicle easier for women to drive. In later years though the Hudsons ruled the stock car and jalopy tracks until the overhead V8's took over. Several years ago I read an article that outlined the demise of Hudson, Packard and Studebaker in the 1930's. Yes.... they actually survived until the 1950's but only because of the contracts they secured in WWII. Basicly they killed them selfs because they had ruled the automotive industry since the early 1900's, refusing to lower their "quality", where-as Walter P saw the "writing on the wall" and came out with the Plymouth which propelled Chrysler into third place in sales by 1933, thereby starting the term "The Big Three". 

Now I know that there are people out there that will take exception to my statements about the unreliaibilty of a Chrysler product, one must keep in mind, I was raised in the Western U.S., namely Idaho and Nevada where many of the towns are sometimes a 100 or more miles apart. By the late 1940's when I was a kid the roads had improved to the point that 60 + mph was considered the norm and that is why I never liked Model A's or anything older than 1936....Bill

[FourDoor]

Since you've brought up Essex on our Plymouth site maybe I can tell an Essex story?? Those old Essexs sedans did indeed have a complete piano hinge right from the top of the door to the bottom. Most other cars ,our Plymouths included, had 2 or sometimes 3 'standard' hinges. The story I was told concerned a 4 door Essex sedan with 'suicide' opening rear doors. Seems the car was pulling up to stop and the lady in the back was anxious to exit the vehicle. She unlatched the door with the handle and opened the door 6" or more just before the car stopped. But if you remember ,or have seen photos of those bygone days, utility poles used to be right up at the curbside in towns and cities. The reverse door opening edge caught a pole and 'locked' into the wood. The car of course kept going albeit slowly to a stop. The piano hinge now comes into play. Maybe an ordinary hinge setup would have broken and the door would have fallen off. Not the Essex. The door stayed in the pole and the rear of the car opened up like a tin can,ripping the body open almost over to the rear window before the door finally let go of the pole. The door and the body metal were hanging back behind the car about 6 to 8 feet with the door at the end of it.? But that piano hinge never did break!!? ?

[12905]

I know that. Then Nash Kelvinator/Hudson, dba American Motors, was purchased by Renault, and then by Chrysler from Renault and then Chrysler by Daimler Benz. The whole convoluted mess still leaves me wondering.

After I wrote and posted the above, I went home and my April copy of the WPC News had arrived. On page 3 under the title 'Photo Meet 2007' is Class 1 Chrysler Predecessor Vehicles and shown are: 1st place 1922 Maxwell, 2nd Place 1917 Dodge, 3rd Place 1954 Nash Ambassador, Honourable Mention 1966 AMC Ambassador and Honourable Mention 1923 Dodge pickup. So with 2/5 in the class being Hudson/Essex-related I guess I have an answer. However, I am still curious as to what others reading/posting on this board think.

Bill, thanks for your input. I did admire the later Hudson engines/drivetrains, but the early sixes did not have a good reputation (at least in the garages in grew up in) - and neither did their oil bath clutches.

[mrodady]

the hudson essex line ended up in the hands of rambler nash and was dropped in the middle fifties

[Wm Steed]

Essex (1919-1932) was a division of  Hudson. According to the Standard Catalog of American Cars the Essex was a 4 cyln until 1924 with 180 CID. In 1927 it was upgraded to a six with only 144 CID and late in the 1927 model the engine was increased to 153 CID. The data on the Essex states that by 1927 the Essex had evolved into an automobile that was very simular to the 1927 Hudson.

The piano hinge doors are a very neat feature of the Esses', most of the body styles had front opening doors.. I have a friend in Idaho that has a '29 2dr which he is going to upgrade the power train to a V6 with 5 spd trans.  Actually the Hudson engines were noted for their reliability and economy. If you wanted to do something neat you might consider one of the later model Hudson six's with Hudson running gear. A lot of the later model Hudsons, 1940's.... had overdrive transmissions....Bill 

[12905]

I have a 27 Essex that I rescued (in 1977) from the crusher. The body is all steel - really high quality when compared to its contemporaries, with touches such as piano hinge doors. Mine is in first-class shape as far as the sheet metal goes, and is virtually 100% complete. Mechanically it is another story. The early Hudson engines were not noted for durability, and mine is the last of the two-wheel external contracting brakes. Just try stopping that going down an 8% grade!

Bottom line is I want a driveable car, not a trailer job, so I need to do some upgrading. That means a different power train and brakes/steering, but I do not want a hot rod. I'm thinking of trying to upgrade using a Chrysler family engine and drive train - either the older flat head, or at the latest, a slant six.

I would be very interested in hearing views - both pro and con.