I am not sure why I am bent on staying 6 volt, other than the fact that it is just the way that it has always been. I am getting a lot of flack that I should go 12V because I will have more options. Any advice on the pro's and con's of converting or not? Thanks, Camille
Hi from NZ Samiam to convert or not depends alot on what you are going to use your car for, if for shows probably not. Ihave 12 volted 3 cars and have had no problems. The first one my 54 was done by an auto electrician, since then i have converted a 37 Ply and a 39 desoto myself, the only job i had done for me was to get an auto elec to hook up the wires for the12v generator and voltage regulator .according to the auto elec their is only one dash guage thatis voltage sensitive ,that is the fuel guage it plus the wiper motor if it is electric need a resistor to cut back the voltage . Their were a few reasons i converted , one the price of a 6V battery ,i dont how they are priced there but here in NZ they are close to twice the price of a 12V. Another was starting,especialy in the cold weather, it makes a BIG difference , and we dont get winters like yours, the starter motor will take 12V as long as you dont wind it over and over to long, mine is still working fine afer 15 years and it up until the last few years was used as a dayly driver . Ihave just found another good reason i dont have to spend over US$ 200 for a pair of 6V sealed beam lights like i have just sean on ebay
In my not so humble opinion, there are only a few reasons to convert to 12v. And at least one of those is mistaken:
- Because the lights are dim or the car is hard to start. This is the mistaken reason as the cause for this is bad wiring and running 12v through it is, at best, a bandage and, at worse, even more of a fire hazard. The fix is to repair or more likely replace the wiring. Replacing the wiring on an older car is generally not too hard a job. A related problem, still under the category of bad wiring is running 12v battery cables on a 6v system: The wires are too small to carry the current needed and the starter will have a difficult time under the best of circumstances.
- Because you want to run 12v accessories that draw too much power for a 6v to 12v converter. Under this list would be things like air conditioning or a 200 watt ghetto blaster. If you want to do that, then the 12v conversion is the least of the work and you should already have a good feeling about the relative merits of 6v and 12v. Since you are asking the question, I'd guess that you are not in this category.
Hi, Camille,
Converting a 6V car to 12V is more often a really bad idea than a good one.
There are exceptions from the hot-rodders' tradition, of course, in which a later model engine which uses a 12V starter is fitted to a 6V car. A 12V starter simply won't develop enough torque on 6V to function, hence the 12V conversion for the car.
If you aren't driven to a 12V conversion by such a need, its much more practical to keep the existing 6V system, and do whatever it takes to put it into good working order.
That said, 'theres no free lunch'. The wiring and other electricals of a car will have unavoidably deteriorated over the half-century or more of the car's existance. Changing to 12V without putting the wiring in good order won't help much, and if you put the wiring, and other electricals, in good order, you don't need to go to 12V, as 6V will work 'as new'.
There is some serious work involved in going through an older car's electricals to put them in good serviceable condition. The generator, starter, voltage regulator or cutout, and other electrical components really should be taken off the car and thoroly inspected, with all the contact surfaces cleaned, new brushes and bearings fitted to the generator and starter, the contacts cleaned/polished on everything else.
Have the distributor out and go through it, doing a clean-up and 'minor overhaul', checking the dist cam and advance weights for free travel, the vacuumatic spark diaphragm for correct function, fitting new 'wear parts' i.e. the points, condenser, the two little flexible primary and grounding leads, rotor and dist cap.
Check the dist shaft bushes for wear, and replace them if you see more than .003-.005 side-to-side play of the dist cam. After fitting new points, and setting the point gap, check the gap on the other five points of the dist cam.....replace the dist cam if you see more than .002-.003 variation.
Then.....on to the wiring.....inspect the wires themselves, looking for deteriorated insulation, wires frayed or partially broken at the terminals (crimp and solder new terminals if needed) Sometimes wires which look good to a visual inspection will have become partially broken inside the insulation......using a good accurate voltmeter, check for full voltage at each component....when under load. Wiggle the components or the wires to check for marginal connections. Where-ever possible, take the wires loose from the componentss, and clean/brighten the wire terminals and the screw terminals of the components. (a bad hard-starting problem could be caused by a high-resistance connection anywhere between the ammeter and the primary side of the coil, for example, even in worn or dirty contacts inside the ignition key switch.)
Fitting new battery cables of the larger diameter required for 6V is important. Older battery cables will often develop corrosion underneath the insulation jacket. Don't fool with them, replace them with best quality new ones, and either bring the battery ground cable to the engine block, or the gearbox. If you must connect the battery ground to the chassis frame, run a jumper wire of the same diameter from the frame to the engine block.
The most famous single cause of hard starting in 6V cars is the replacement, by fools, of the original 6V rated larger battery cables with the much thinner ones rated for 12V.....cheap 'brand X' 6V rated cables are another, sneakier problem....the actual copper wire is undersize, not very much undersize, just enough to cause that little bit of voltage drop involved in hard starting when the car is cold and/or wet....like on cold rainy days)
The 'key' to reliable operation on 6V, assuming the wires and components check 'OK', is clean terminals and contacts. The 'tarnish' which naturally forms on the metal of the terminals and contacts is a 'resistor', which causes 'voltage drop' under load. Sometimes switches, such as light or ignition switches, will be found to be simply worn out, and must be replaced.
Unless you are really fanatical about originality, converting to sealed-beam headlamps is a practical way to see well at night, for obvious road safety reasons (sealed-beam adaptors can be found, with some looking, and your headlamps can always be put back to original later for display or whatever)
With the 6V system correctly checked out, cleaned up, and set up per the manual, you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how 'briskly' the engine will spin over on the starter, and how quickly (half a turn of the engine, one turn at most) the engine will fire and start.
One of the best investments you can make if you are inexperienced in low-voltage DC wiring is to look on the used book-sellers' pages of the internet, and get yourself a copy of the 1946 vintage book 'How To Find A Short' by Jack Steele. Steele did up an excellent job of explaining automotive electrical components and wiring in terms a 'newbie' can readily understand. One of these days, if ever I get around to it, I intend to see whether that book is out of copyright, if it is, I'll have a bunch of copies run.
cheers
Carla
I just checked abebooks for 'How To Find A Short' by Jack Steele. There were three copies listed, now two as I bought the one listed in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Car wiring has always been a bit of a mystery for me although I did learn quite a bit when I put in a new wiring harness in my 1938 Chrysler. Hope this book helps with some of the minor wiring problems I have in my '48 Dodge D25 Club Coupe. If you are interested in a copy of this book it's worth a look at http://www.abebooks.com/
I have decided to stay 6 volt and feel good about the decision. I looked into wiring harnesses' to the tune of between $500.00 up to $800.00. I have decided to buy the wire from magnetoparts.com and do it ourselves. Anybody had any experience with them? Thanks, Camille
get the battery cables that are as big as your thumb. And u might consider an extra ground strap from the engine to the frame.
Quote from: samiam0821 on October 30, 2006, 10:20:37 PM
I have decided to stay 6 volt and feel good about the decision. I looked into wiring harnesses' to the tune of between $500.00 up to $800.00. I have decided to buy the wire from magnetoparts.com and do it ourselves. Anybody had any experience with them? Thanks, Camille
Is there something special about the wiring harness? My son is hot-rodding a 1950 Plymouth and we got a wiring harness from EZ Wiring (http://www.ezwiring.com/) and it was pretty easy to install. I think we spent about $135 on the harness and seems to be pretty complete. Of course it's not anything like OEM wiring but then with the car chopped, lowered, etc. we're not looking for original anyway ;D
If you are running 6v then the same wattage load will draw twice the current as in a equivalent 12v system. For DC current the resistance goes by the cross sectional area of the copper. So basically for a load that works great with 14 gauge wire on a 12v system will need a 12 or maybe 10 gauge wire on a 6v system. End result: A 6v wiring harness will be overkill for running 12v. But a 12v harness will be undersized for running 6v.
All of the generic street rod wiring kits I have seen are sized for 12v. That is okay if you are running 12v but you will have dim headlights and possibly dangerously hot wires if you use it on a 6v system.
Places like Harnesses Unlimited and Y'n'Z make duplicate of original wiring harnesses that are properly sized for the original current requirements. They use modern insulation but then cover it with lacquered fabric to duplicate the original appearance. They can also make custom harnesses to support newer accessories (turn signals, dual horns, etc.). The down side is that they are more expensive than a generic "fits all cars if they are 12v" approach that the cheaper alternatives offer.
I'm considering this question myself now. First, I am unfamiliar with the cost of 6v bulbs all around. How pricey are they? Second, I am wondering about upgrading away from the old points even though they work fine when setup, which would require 12v if I understand. Do you need a new coil and voltage regulator when something is changed?
As I've never driven (or seen) anything 6v, I have to weigh the testimony I hear from the oldtimers and farmers about 6v equipment. To be blunt I'll lean toward whichever is cheaper honestly.
At the least I'll get the giant battery cables so I can go either way. Not sure on the rest of wiring.
Ryan
After replacing the old wiring and changing to a 6V alternator, I was very happy running a 6 volt system for several years. I was able to get 6V halogen headlights and headlight relays, and everything was peachy.
Nonetheless, I did eventually convert to 12V, chiefly because after my third attempt to get the OEM gas gauge working (1 rebuilt sending unit, a new gauge, then a new sending unit; wiring checked okay every time) I wanted to change to an aftermarket setup that would work, and couldn't find any good 6V units.
As always, YMMV.
Marty
Many people that work on old cars are to quick to tear things apart to fix something that "ain't broke" . If a person is repowering their vehicle with a late model mega horse power engine with all the accessories, AC etc., then by all means the electrical will have to be upgraded. If on the the other had the car is remaining basicly stock there is no need to fix something that "ain't broke".
Many people are not aware of some of the quirks that alternators have. A big problem is that they charge better than a generator on the idle, but if a battery is very low, say from sitting and/or having to crank an engine for a long period, the alternator will burn it's self up trying to bring the battery up. If a person reads the directions that pertain to replacing a battery or alternator you will find that the battery must be charged to at least 50% of capacity before operating the vehicle.
It cost me over $600., having to replace alternators that failed on my motor home, because of a battery problem, wherein one battery had failed in a dual battetry system. It was an expensive lesson to learn that mechanics and/or dealers are not as knowledgable as one would think.
Six volt systems work very well if everything is in good repair, ie; all connections clean and tight with no interferance between the ground connections on body panels. Attention must be payed to the quality and age of the battery, care should be taken to disconnect the battery from the vehicle when the vehicle is not being used and it can be a good idea to hook up a one of the charge maintaining float chargers. These battery maintainers keep the battery from sulfating from lack of use. In reality a car battery does not store electricity, they make electricity by galvantic action, acid reacting to the lead plates.
On the issue of 6 volt point ignitions........ convert the ignition to a Pertonic point less system....... CAUTION!!!!! YOU HAVE TO USE A 12V COIL ON A 6V PETRONIC SYSTEM BECAUSE OF THE HIGHER RESISTANCE OF THE 6V SYSTEM. Contact Petronic for the proper application, don't trust your local parts counter man....Bill
I have found that using an "8" volt battery on my original 40 Ply give me some additional cranking speed and has not affected bulb life, instruments, etc.
Don
In what circumstances would you need to change away from the stock coil? If you did change to magneto pickup instead of points, or 8v or 12v are there guidelines for picking an appropriate non-stock ignition coil?
I think I could be happy with 6v or 12v I just am trying to decide about the 'challenge' of the older 6v bulbs and ign as I've heard conflicting reports. Are 6v bulbs near the same price and readily available at a typical parts store?
8v?!? wow, I feel younger (or more ignorant) all the time. I didn't know that was available in car batteries.
Don:
so using 8v did not affect even your fuel gauge? That is tempting!
A Hot topic, to be sure. The 50 Plymouth was and is one of the most reliable and easy to service vehicles ever manufactured anywhere any time. My current 50 Ply is basically stock except for a 230 ci engine and overdrive. The electrics are six volts and everything works just fine. As to the cost of 6V light bulbs, just how many bulbs does one have to change in the average vehicle in its entire life ?
I drove my first 50 120000 miles over what it registered the day I bought it. Some years it logged 20000 miles plus. The next 50 about 30000 miles, then a 51 convert which I still own, 40000 plus and a 52 sedan about 50000 miles in twenty years. All these cars and several others were six volts. I put a slant six in another 50 and converted it to 12V but there was never any reason to change any of the others. Did I ever have troubles ? Sure I did. The expression , if it has T*ts or a battery, you are gonna have trouble applies here just like any where else.
Most everyone I know who has changed to 12V has done so to cover up another problem, like bad compression and hard starting. My advice : Put your car in the condition the manufacturer intended it to operate in and you will have no problems outside of the general care and maintenance the machine deserves.
Now that I have retired from the day to day grind, I have posted a sign on my shop. It says: IF IT WASN'T BUILT WITH SIX VOLTS AND POSITIVE GROUND, I WON'T WORK ON IT.
All the information about keeping six volt systems up to par has been posted, but I just have to add that I had years of experience with having to start vehicles with six volt systems in temperatures as low as -40 F. Not easy, but we managed, and in many cases the vehicles were not equipped with block heaters. There is absolutely no need to change to twelve volts unless the vehicle is not remaining stock. No real benefits accrue.
Dear 50 Plymouth,
the gas gauge system does not just use one coil, but three of them. Sending unit has a resistor coil, gauge has 2 field coils reading a difference between them. So, the car voltage has nearly no effect on the readings. My car gives between 6.5 and 8.5 Volts depending on temperature of the regulator. See Sevice manual, mine has a diagram on p 107.
Greetings! Go
Using an 8v battery in a 6v car is an old time trick that I learned 50+ years ago when I lived in Idaho. The only thing that has to be altered is to turn the voltage regulator up to put out 8 v. I have used an 8v in my '36 Ford for over fifty years with no adverse effects on the radio ect. The 8v battery's are available from any good battery store, they are pricey but worth it. A second option is one of the Optima 6v, I think they are rated at 850 cranking amps. The Optima will flaten your wallet, in about the $140 range, but I understand they are worth it.
On the Petronic ignition thing. I have used them on several vehicles, 53 Pontiac, 56/57 T-birds, 59 Ford F100 and a 73 Ford F350, most of these vehicles I currently own.
When I ordered the ignition for the 53 Pontiac, a 6v system, Petronic told me I would need one of their 12 v coils. I had the parts shipped directly to my mechanic, he installed the module put not the coil because it was a 12v. He called me and told me the Pertonic was junk, the car would not run. I finally convinced him to put the 12v coil on and the car ran fine. Two years later the car still runs fine....Bill
From reading these threads looks like I'll go with 6v or 8v. I'll just have to make sure my wiring is up for it!
IMNSHO, if your wiring is "up for it" then you don't need an 8v battery.
Changing a car from 6 volts to 12 volts is simply a copout. You are covering up defects in the car's electrical system and ultimately looking for an electrical fire. The electrical wiring has deteriated over the years and you're going to 'fix' it by uping the applied voltage to push more current down the poor wiring to get the different equipment to do their jobs. Make sure you put a battery disconnect switch on it if you store it in your house garage. This 'fix' could end up costing you your life.
All the pro's and con's have already been posted here about converting to 12v so i wont say any thing except it is a matter of personal choice .I'm sorry but i have to disagree with the last statement ,that it is a cop out to convert to 12v ,and the insinuation that it could cause a fire and cost your life .one of the first jobs that should be done after purchasing an old car ,or restoring it .is to have the wireing checked out and repaired /replaced if needed.If the wireing is so bad that it is going to cause a fire it will happen wether it is 6v or 12v. over the last 20 years i have converted 4 cars to 12v,and have never had any problems,i made sure the wireing was sound first. I still own two of those cars, my 54 has been converted for about 18years,and i have a 39 desoto that was done 7 years ago.
If it only were as simple as you say. You think every Tom, Dick and Harriet that will hear about the 6 volt to 12 volt 'fix' will strip out every particle of wiring in their car when they drop in a 12 volt battery? If only! They will take the shortest route to hooking up 12 volts and go with that. And they are looking for a wiring fire because they are covering up an endemic of poor connections through out their vehicle. Do you think all old car owners are automotive? engineers? Or do you think they are just ordinary blokes who will go down to the NAPA store ,buy what they hope is necessary, and drop it in and go for a drive? Which scenario do you think is closer to the truth? Will you personally check out every vehicle to see that all the old wiring has been removed and new wiring installed by these owners? It's can be a dangerous change if the owner is not up to the technicalities involved. And I know many in the hobby who are just happy when there's a whirring sound when the key is turned and the motor starts. You mean to tell me that every old car owner understands every thing about the change and that he/she won't just throw in a 12 volt battery and hope for the best? This site and others like it are full of backyard mechanics trying to work with systems that university grads developed at the manufacturing level and put on our cars. You think it's smart to encourage redesigning a vehicle's electrical system when the person's level of electrical understanding is changing a fuse when it blows? I don't think so. I think instead of telling these owners to change over their cars from 6 to 12, we should instead endevour to instruct them how to repair the 6 volt system and get it back to it's original operating condition.
? For one thing that's what this site is all about. Isn't it? If you want to say you're defeated and can't repair your 6 volt system and won't take the time to learn how, and you had to throw in the towel and change your car over to 12 volts, at least have the intestinal fortitude to say so and tell these people you gave up on having an antique car and had to modernize the electrical system or sell the car. That's really what's going on here isn't it? It was either make the change from 6 to 12 or get a modern car? You couldn't ,or wouldn't, drive or own a car as built? You dont' really want to own an old car and a piece of automotive history, you want to drive a 2007 vehicle that looks like an old car. When people see your car at a show or at the coffee shop, do you tell the gawkers that it really is a 2007 vehicle as it has a modern 12 volt system with all the modern equipment on it that 12 volt system will allow? Do you tell them you couldn't figure out the orignal 6 volt system that operated the car in it's factory condition so you took the path of least resistance and modernized it to 12 volts? You're not really an old car buff ,you just think you are. Quasi,make believe,fair weather. Pick one. This site was orignally set up for the restoration of Plymouths back to the day of manufacture. Anything else is not restoration it's just hot rodding. Whether the change is a V8 engine in place of a flat head 6? or from 6 to 12 volts, I see no difference.? ?
Well now... It would appear that the conscience of Plymouths past has decended upon those of us that would dare to insinuate that there might be a flaw and/or possibly better way to repair/restore and old car. I also wonder????? why there were so many vehicles, DPCD included, that were manufactured for export to Europe during the 1930's fitted with 12 volt electrical systems? Is this because the Europian electricity was of an inferior quality to the US electriticy, or was it because 12v worked better in the colder climates of Europe? One last thing..... Why were the vehicles manufactured for export and/or built in Europe during the 1930's fitted with turn signals whereas the US models did not have turn signals until the early 1950's?
I resently read an article written by the Director of one of the most respected automobile musiems in the country. In the article he stated that a vast majority of the vehicles in his facility were in fact reconstructed vehicles, not "restored" because the original was in such poor condition it was necessary to remake many of the parts because they were unobtainable.
I am very glad that I took the time to research the history of my Plym before I undertook the restoration of the vehicle. I am also glad that I upgraded the mechanical componets of the car. These upgrades paid off on Friday afernoon... I was cruising along with the traffic at about 35 mph on a main city street when an idiot three cars in front of me decided to stop and let a passenger out. The car behind him rearended him, the next car swirved into on coming traffic, I slammed on my brakes (power assited disk brakes) coming to a controlled stop with room to spare. Had I had original drum brakes my car would have went into a skid and mostlikely sustained heavy damage
I have said it before and will say it again..... Chrysler built great cars....... I have improved on what was state of the art engineering in the 1930's, I can't help but think that Walter P. would approve of my improvements....Bill
This topic is hotter than a 14 gauge wire carrying 30 amperes. Never lose sight of the fact that volts multiplied by amps equals watts, and it is wattage that is the unit of power. 746 watts = 1 horsepower.
With the above formula, VxA=W in mind, it takes less wire, in gauge, to deliver the same amount of power if the voltage is raised. Look out to your street. The primary wires to the transformer feeding your house are not much larger than the ones that come down through your meter. The voltage on the primary is possibly 24000 while the ones in your house are 120/240.
One reason, and it cannot be discounted, is that the change from six to twelve volts was to cut the cost of copper wire in each vehicle manufactured in half. Why else would GM have been the leader in this trend?
Man, I hate to get in the middle of this somewhat heated discussion. However, here goes. This is the classic conflict between the purists represented so articulatedly here by "Plymouths" and the position of, for want of a better word, the "modernists" represented by Mr. Steed.
Bottom line is that, while Mr. Steed makes a good argument for the upgrades he has made to his 39 convertible, it is really no longer a 39 Plymouth. It is an hybrid that is externally correct, and if that's what you want, so be it. I think it significant that in terms of vintage cars? that are rarer than Plymouths and much more expensive, it would be considered a mortal sin to alter any part of the vehicle and if it was done the value would plummet dramatically. Just imagine what would happen to the value of a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, or to a Duesenberg if someone "modernised" it.
In some jurisdictions licensing authorities will not allow an altered vehicle to carry a vintage plate, and I live in one of them. If you want to license an altered vehicle then you can get a "collector" plate, but not a vintage vehicle plate. I think this is a sensible distinction, and I keep my vehicles as close to stock as possible. Obviously, this has limitations as to where, when and how they are driven, but this is part of the territory.
The comment about the museum representative who said that most of the displayed vehicles are not original is a red herring. They may not be 100% original, but the non-original parts are replicas of the original and not so-called upgrades to more modern components. Thus the vehicles are as close to original in form and function as it is possible to get.
Mr. Steed queries why Europe essentially always used 12 volts. It has nothing to do with climatic conditions, because in Europe they vary as greatly as they do in the U.S. It has to do with the fact that engineering thought there determined initially what we accepted later, and that was that, in general terms, higher voltage is better. This attitude carries through to domestic voltage in most of Europe; it is 220 - 240 volts for all lights and appliances as opposed to our 120/240 system.
please let me apolagise ,i didn't mean to help stir up a hornets nest,my intentions were only to offer my advise on a process that ihave done and know works sucessfully if all the proper steps are taken. now first off i am not an automotive engineer,only a backyard mechanic ,who has learnt what little i know through necessity by watching ,listning to others , and reading a lot. in my younger days, 50's and 60's if we didn't repair our own cars we couldn't afford to own them. As for the people that take shortcuts on advise given, there will always be those people around. if we stopped offering our advise on the basis a short cut might be taken then there would be no forums such as this one,after all it is only advise not every one has to agree with it or take it. here is another reason, which cannot be discounted ,why the industry changed to 12v. technology, as more and better accessorys became available it would have been found that the 6v system was not good enough.The same as being found know with the hybrid cars the batterys that we have used for years are just not up to the job,