I replaced the two front wheel cylinders on my 1940 Plymouth in Dec. We bled the brakes starting at the farthest point. Each time I would get a good pedal, but once the car would sit, the brake pedal would go right to the floor. Three pumps of the pedal then I would have good brakes again. We have also adjusted the brake shoes. I have bled the brake system four times, all all times keeping the master cylinder topped off, with the same results. White Post resleeved my master cylinder a number of years ago.
What am I doing wrong, that I can't appear to get all the air out of the lines?
It is working towards the middle of Feb here in the Catskillls, so driving season will be soon upon us and I sure would like to get this problem taken care of.
Thanks in advance,
Bob
Bob, when I did mine, I used the one man method. I loosen the bleader and slip a piece of clear tubing over the bleeder. This is of sufficient length to go into a clear container placed onthe floor. I usually zip tie a nut to the bottom of the tube as an anchor. Into the container goes about 2 inches of brake fluid and the nut keeps the end of the tube below the surface of the fluid.
This allows you to push the fluid out throught he cylinder without the possibility of air entering into the system.
If your garage is quiet you can hear when there are no longer any air bubbles being passed through the system. but by leaning out the door you can check visually.When the fluid in the tube is clear of air, retighten the bleeder and move on to the next. (always start at the furthest point form the MC and work to the closest)
Also move the pedal slowly and smoothly in single down and up strokes. And watch the reservoir to make sure you don't pump it dry.
Double check the bottom of the reservoir and make sure thee is nothing blocing the retrun hole. there are two hole in the bottom of the reservoir, one to allow fluid to the piston and one to allow it to come back when the pedal is released. I wonder if your jobber provided for the when the sleeving was done?
Try the bleeding process again, it sounds like thee is still air in the system somewhere.
One thing I forgot to mention was that when we are bleeding the brakes, we noticed air bubbles coming out of the cap on the master cylinder.
Is that normal?
what ever u do, don't push the pedal all the way to the floor. Put a piece of 4x4 next to the pedal as a stop. If u look at the brake pedal arm, u will notice it is a gentle curve. It imparts fore and aft motion to the MC shaft. after a certain point - pedal near the floor - that motion changes to up and down, tipping the shaft just a bit and allowing a burp of air into the MC at the very end of the pedal travel. It is a long story similar to yours how I figured this out. Everyone knows how to bleed brakes, but out of frustration I carefully read the service manual and they mention not putting the pedal to the metal-then it dawned on me why.
I don't know if this will help in your case, but....
Years ago, I had a '36 Plymouth sedan, and I replaced the master cylinder with a rebuilt one.
After I bled the brakes, I discovered that there was a VERY minute difference between a good pedal and hardly any pedal, when I adjusted the master cylinder pushrod.
It seemed like I turned the rod about 1/8 turn (or less) with an open end wrench; any more and the brakes would drag, and any less, and there was hardly any pedal (or maybe it was vice versa).
Regards,
Pat O'Connor
:) HI Bob . Read your first info .. and wanted to add ... Make sure the brakes at each drum are adjusted! when you replaced the wheel Cly. you might have too much free play before they hit the inner drum.. so check that (jack the wheels up and tighten each brake adjuster till they stop a spinning wheel then back it out a tad. . Do the other back shoe same way) Check the other wheels the same.. ... if after all this and you re bleed as per instructed by the others .. I would replace the master Cly. Got to get ready SPRING is almost HERE! Happy PLY-mouthing DANiel
You didn't mention bleeding the rear brakes. You should start with the brake furthest from the master cylinder then work towards the closest. Do all four brakes even if you've worked on only one.
Bob,
I've run into the same problem with my 40 coupe. Check to make sure that the fittings that go into each of the wheel cylinders are there and are not cracked. This is a common problem for 40 plymouth owners. I beleive the part you should be looking for screws into the wheel cylinder and the brake lines screw into it. If you are missing these fittings apparently you will run into the problem that you are describing.
When I first bled my system, (its been bled nearly 10 times now) I had a great pedal only to come back 30 minutes later and have it go straight to the floor. I was stumped until someone on this forum told me about these mysterious fittings which were not on my wheel cylinders when I took them out to rebuild them. I have ordered the parts and they should be here this week. Then I'll bleed the brakes for the 11th and hopefully last time. Here is the link to that thread. http://plymouthbulletin.com/smf/index.php?topic=534.0
Yenz (hopefully I'm spelling it right) at Vintage power wagons also states that it is virtually impossible to bleed the 40 system without a pressure bleeder. There are too many bends in the factory design to get all the air out. He suggest using a pressure bleeder and maintaining 4lbs of pressure through the system. Also, be sure that your wheel cylinders are in good working condition. If they are pitted then you will run the risk of air seeping into the system.
Bob,
There are instructions at the site listed below for making a homemade pressure bleeder. Easy to make and I used it on my '41 Plymouth with great results. I found a barb hose fitting that screwed into the master cylinder in place of the reservoir plug to connect the presure bleeder. It also helped me locate a leaking fitting at the rear axle that I did not find with regular pedal bleeding.
http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm
Jim Yergin
Bob,
I posted this on the p15-d24 board and thought it might help you. Everyone else am I installing this correctly?
So my parts are finally here. Brand spanking new wheel cylinders and the illusive bronze fittings that have gone previously undiscovered for my 6 year brake saga. They may be bronze, but I feel like I've discovered gold.
It's truly amazing how a little part can make such a big difference. If you bleed your brakes, get a good pedal, wait 20 minutes to an hour, push pedal and pedal goes to the floor, these little blocks or the lack thereof may be your problem.
My car lacked them completely so I didn't have any reference to indicate that I needed them. Apparently they were removed by the prior owner when he purchased new wheel cylinders. I'm hoping to use the long weekend to get them on the car and bleed the brakes again hopefully for the final time.
Here are some pics of my new parts including the illusive bronze wheel cylinder blocks.
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Big thanks to all the guys and gals at Vintage Power Wagons for helping me get this stuff together, and tremendous customer service. It is good to know that there are still some knowledgeable people out there with the parts that I need willing to do the work to earn my business. You have a customer for life in me.
I just completed a total brake job on my 40 Ply P-9 and no such fittings were installed on my original. The new brake lines screwed directly into the new wheel cylinders. Of course one must remember to use the serated washer. The adjusting and bleeding was a bit tricky as was getting the DOT 5 to not seep past the new cyl. rubbers. All tips giver here are excellent, especially the use of the block of wood to keep the pedal off the floor wheen bleeding.
Don
It sound to me like you have a bad one-way valve in the master cylinder.? Get that replaced.? Then make sure you have all of the brake shoes adjusted to .006 space between the shoe and brake drum.? When that is done use a pressure bleeder as some previous poster suggested.? I did the push and release on my 40 coupe until I could no longer talk.? It seems that I was chasing a air bubble where the brake line goes over the axle.? Every time we'd try to push it out with the brake petal it would float back to the top of the highest point of the brake line while we getting ready to do the next PUSH.? A never ending battle.? USE the pressure bleeder.? I have some plans if you need them.
Ken:
I would like to take you up on the "pressure bleeder" design you offered. Would you mind posting it?
Thanks
Don
Brake Bleeder
Ken Bartz
March 2006
I have several times been faced with the dilemma of having to bleed the brakes on my old Plymouths.? The first one was on my 1940 Plymouth.? I had my wife sit in the seat and push the petal.? ?Push?..Release? I kept saying.? We did this for several days and still did not get a firm petal.? I asked several people what the problem was.? It was possibly an air bubble at the brake line where it passes over the axle.? Every time a push was made the bubble would travel a little bit and then float back to the top of the line at the axle.? The solution then was to push the brake pedal very fast and firmly.? It worked.? Since then I have tried the vacuum brake bleeder which did not seem to work very well but I had to go back to the master cylinder to keep refilling.? I always wondered if I had let air into the lines.
I read an article on line about a pressure bleeder.? I decided to make one.? Here is how to do it.? Get a ? gallon weed sprayer and modify it as shown.
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I filled all of the holes with epoxy in the plunger area as I found that this area was not sturdy enough.? Drill three holes in the body of the tank to take 1/8? pipe thread.? The wall of the plastic tank is thick enough.? Install a 0 to 30 psi gauge, a pipe to barb adaptor and a valve of some type.? (the valve is used to relieve the pressure when done)?
Take an old master cylinder cover and drill a hole in it to install a 1/8? pipe to barb adaptor. Solder a piece of copper tubing on to the end of the 1/8? to barb adaptor.? The length of the copper tubing should be sufficient to reach within ?? of the bottom of the tank.? Put a 3-foot length of plastic tubing, using hose clamps, on the barb fittings on the tank and the master cylinder cover.? Install all of the pieces.? Then on the wheel cylinder end you need a piece of plastic tubing that fits tightly over the brake bleeder screw.? Have a small container to collect the brake fluid that is coming from the tubing.
To operate this new tool, empty a one-quart container of brake fluid in the tank.? Use the pump to slowly have the brake fluid enter the tubing until it just gets to the master cylinder cover.? Then install the cover on the cars master cylinder.? Do this by slightly loosening the hose clamp so to rotate the cap on the master cylinder.? Tighten all clamps.? Then pump up the container to 15 to 20 psi.? Go to the wheel cylinder farthest from the master cylinder.? (usually the right rear)? Open the bleeder screw and watch the fluid come out.? Tighten the screw when all new fluid comes out.? You can watch the bubbles in the tubing.? Check the pressure and the fluid level of the tank and follow the same procedure for the rest of the wheel cylinders.?
I have heard that if you are using silicone brake fluid which entrains air easily that you want to limit the pressure in your pressure bleeder to four or five PSI. I managed to get my brakes bled the old fashioned way by pumping the pedal but will try a pressure bleeder the next time. The couple of times I tried a vacuum bleeder I had no luck at all.
I had similar luck with the vacuum brake bleeder. It worked fine on the first vehicle but the silicon fluid did something to the mechanism and tubing and it hasn't worked right since.
I used a pressure bleeder like Ken's with Silicone Dot 5 brake fluid on my 29 Plymouth and it worked very well.